So it seems patch notes are up. Yay.
**Update**
A character has FINALLY copied on over to the PTR for me. I’ll be on the PvP server tagged as “Miniphone” or “Miniphonetwo” if anybody happens to see me on and wants to chat. Time to play with these changes myself and get a post up for you all with my analysis!
*Edit : First impression : Even easier to faceroll than before. So far so good. Mana is a ridiculous on dummies, thanks for that Blizzard :(. (Change CS cost you asses)
* Charger: Can now be learned at level 40.
* Exorcism: Now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can once again be used on players.
* Hand of Reckoning: Redesigned. Now does damage only when target does not currently have the caster targeted, but damage done increased to 50% of attack power, occurring after the taunt effect is applied.
* Judgement of Light: Now heals for 2% of the attacker’s maximum health instead of a variable amount based on the spell power and attack power of the judging paladin.
* Lay on Hands: The buff from this ability now reduces the physical damage taken by the target by 10/20% instead of increasing the target’s armor.
* Righteous Fury: No longer has a duration or mana cost, remaining until cancelled or death. Also cancelled when a Paladin activates a different talent specialization.
* Sacred Shield: When a paladin casts Flash of Light on a target with this buff, they also now place a heal over time effect on the target, healing that target for 100% of the Flash of Light amount over 12 seconds.
* Seal of Blood: This ability has been removed.
* Seal of the Martyr: This ability has been removed.
* Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage.
* Shield of Righteousness: Now deals 100% of shield block value as damage instead of 130%.
* Warhorse: Can now be learned at level 20.
o Holy
+ Beacon of Light: The healing amount on the Beacon of Light target is now based on the total healing done (including over-healing) instead of the effective healing done. Radius increased to 60 yards. Multiple Paladins can now have this active on the same target. Buff indicating a player is within range of the Beacon target is no longer displayed.
+ Divine Intellect: This talent now gives 2/4/6/8/10% increased intellect instead of 3/6/9/12/15%.
+ Illumination: This talent now returns 30% of the mana cost of the spell instead of 60%.
+ Ardent Defender: Redesigned. Currently, any damage taken by the paladin while at 35% health or below is reduced. Instead, any attack that would reduce the paladin to 35% health or below has its damage reduced. In addition, once every 2 minutes an attack that would have killed the paladin will fail to kill, and instead set the paladin’s health to 10/20/30% of maximum.
+ Art of War: Now only applies to melee critical hits, but will make your next Flash of Light or Exorcism instant.
+ Crusader Strike: Damage reduced to 75% weapon damage to match the new 4 second cooldown.
+ Seal of Command: Redesigned. This seal now deals 36% weapon damage on every swing, and deals substantially less judgement damage.
+ Vindication: Redesigned. Now lowers target attack power, is consistent and does not stack with Demoralizing Shout.
Slayton and I will hopefully have a video for you all detailing what this means for the class sometime today/tomorrow, since reading isn’t always fun when it comes to a wall of patch notes!
-Megaphone
(Just added a few more things from the patch notes; to view changes on other classes and other small changes like mount requirements please visit; http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17899680776&sid=1&pageNo=1#1)
-Slayton
June 18th, 2009 - 3:43 pm
Well this aint exactly the “overhaul” that they told us. But im not so happy about the SoB and JoL removed/nerfed. I allways will see a retri as a “raidhelper” rather then a DPS class. Im more focussing on helping out healing/reducting agro/cleanse/give out hands of, and so on. Even tho for now i can still manage to keep my dps up, since there is only a few skills we use and dont really have to pay attention to buff/debuffs on ourselfs.
These incomming nerfs are gonna be really gamebreaking for a paladin that actually does what a paladin is supposed to do (wich is paying attention more to raid then urself)
Well hope that they actually listen to some people advice (i saw some good advice given about the class overhaul) and that this wont be most of final notes.
June 18th, 2009 - 3:45 pm
Good-bye Ret paladins and hello……something else.
June 18th, 2009 - 3:45 pm
Hey all,
I am really looking forward to these changes, maybe the others will stop calling us faceroll….
I can dream
June 18th, 2009 - 3:59 pm
Problem now is that we no longer have much burst besides random Exorcism with AoW. Damage is all spread out, so extra GCDs needed to heal/support will drop damage even more. Overall, I’m predicting a very large nerf in PvP DPS (traded for a bit more survivability), moderate nerf to PvE DPS on trash, and possibly a slight boost to DPS on longer single target fights.
No new offensive utility, which makes this feel like a pretty heavy blow to PvP.
June 18th, 2009 - 4:09 pm
Those are major nerfs for PVE DPS for ret pallies….
June 18th, 2009 - 4:22 pm
Guess my main spec is Protection now, wish I would have geared that rather than Ret… Ret’s dps is gonna be pathetic, I’m guessing at least by 500 dps less…
June 18th, 2009 - 4:50 pm
No room to even divine plea without killing dps.
June 18th, 2009 - 4:50 pm
Sounds more like a sideways shift rather than a Nerf or Buff. Personally, I’m going to reserve judgement until I give it a try.
June 18th, 2009 - 5:08 pm
“I am really looking forward to these changes, maybe the others will stop calling us faceroll…”
I personally don’t give a fuck what other classes say as long as I am able to function as a melee dps. Which ties into…
@Drops: Basically yeah. Haven’t really looked at AoW proc rates, but it’s just more RNG. Really, really, really need some offensive utility besides damage, even moreso now with Ret pally burst spread out. It’s not like we NEED more PvP survivability anyway, so I don’t understand why they’d give that to us.
June 18th, 2009 - 5:09 pm
Let’s not forget that a debuff to crusader strike was added to a ptr then taken away. Or that the original CS which was 6 sec was 6 sec all through 2.0 and then changed at the launch of BC. Patch notes are decent, but until they go through the ptr to live, it’s anyone’s guess.
However, it’s our chance to flood the ptrs and test this shit thoroughly and give feedback. Personally, there could be an issue with SoV being dispelled, but then again it’s a dot so with stoicism we get some offensive debuff dispel protection. I just hope that our dmg doesn’t get “dispelled” so low we don’t see the 33% weapon dmg. I’m also worried this could put us on the tracks of “once you have your stacks, forget about switching to another target” which is pretty much our strat now. Dmg here, then switch targets, dmg there, switch back, switch back, blow cds, have them use cds, switch switch switch, WINGS AND BURST!
If we don’t have that playstyle anymore, we’re going to either need more dmg, a lot more unhealable non burst dmg (lol, op) or we’ll need some utility/debuffs (cs debuff v2.0?).
Let’s get out there and try it in the field boys!
June 18th, 2009 - 5:31 pm
So is the ptr out yet so i can check this out?
June 18th, 2009 - 5:32 pm
I fail to see the Massive Overhaul to our combat, except the removal of SoB/SoM the rest of it just seems to prove the theory that Blizz has no f’ing idea what to do with ret. Linking Exor to AoW just seems like a copout as do the SoC changes….
June 18th, 2009 - 5:39 pm
Lol. Stacking dispellable debuffs to do MAYBE the same damage you do now. Unless the DoT is just plain brutal (it wont be), it wont see much use in PvP, and you’ll be using SoC with a weak judgement and a nerfed CS to try and burst a target to death with.
Better have a partner that can snare so you can stack your dot, cause you aint gonna be switching targets to burst with any sort of effect now.
June 18th, 2009 - 5:57 pm
To all the people screaming that PvE is being nerfed, look again, while we aren’t sure exactly what/if coefficients are being changed, the quick and dirty napkin math from the folks over at EJ are actually saying our sustained DPS is likely going up and that we are closer to a full blown rotation than ever.
Im actually pretty happy with these changes (i dont play Holy) but the new prot cooldown is AMAZING (what other tank can live thru a 10,000,000 damage hit), and as far as PvE goes a damage increase is always welcome. Ret will be hurting in PvP unless we can use Hand of Reck on players, which is another short CD attack and provides an interesting mechanic in arenas forcing people to target us or take extra damage. Less burst also means theres room for that fabled PvP utility thats been sitting just out of reach for the longest time.
June 18th, 2009 - 6:03 pm
Fail.
We didn’t need to press buttons more often. We just needed to not have to press 4 at once. The changes look like they’ll work, at least in PvE, but it won’t be fun.
The changes to WSG, AB, and EotS seem short-sighted. With an 8 second cap time in AB, you can be polymorphed or sapped while the mage or rogue caps the flag next to you. Previously, this was barely possible, but usually not. No one is going to play 2v2 anymore except for last minute points. I applaud the resilience changes (it’s been a long time coming), but unless infinite healer mana is removed from arenas, every team will need an MS or a shit-ton of CC. Maybe they’ll buff repentance back to 10seconds (ya right).
As for the seal changes, great job removing SoB/SoM - it only took 7 months. But trying to make a PvE and PvP seal just doesn’t work. I’ll state right now that what’s going to happen in PvP is Ret paladins will sit on a target that can’t CC or get away a lot like a warrior or DK, stack up SoV, and then deal seal damage for almost as much damage as SoC and more judgement damage. We’ll turn into counter-comps for any cleave team. Sure, it won’t be used every match, but with the future being 3v3 and 5v5, we’ll most likely have the capability to stick on a target for a while and hit them once every 15 seconds.
June 18th, 2009 - 6:13 pm
I made a breakdown of the ret changes for 3.2 currently noted in the patch notes. i made a post on my guild forum and then posted on the WoW forums. please try to get this some publicity by reporting for stick and possibly sticking this on the ret paladin.com website.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17899681166&sid=1
thank you
HP Stormreaver-US
June 18th, 2009 - 7:11 pm
AW SHIT
June 18th, 2009 - 7:40 pm
Maybe they should make SoC (or CS or DS) refresh the SoV stacks, that way we can start with SoV and then swap seals. Still have to see what they change SoC to. And that SS change, with FoL… does that seem more like a ret buff than anything else? SS procs, AoW procs, FoL yourself, if it crits, we get 2 hots?
June 18th, 2009 - 8:04 pm
question: when you cleanse the SoV stacks, does it remove a stack or remove all the stacks? because that would make the difference between using it in pvp and not.
June 18th, 2009 - 9:20 pm
I am terrified as to what is going to happen to my BG chart topping, dps raid top 5, ret paladin. I do not like these changes one bit. And Vindication is totally useless now.
June 18th, 2009 - 9:21 pm
I’m going to start gearing my Prot and start leveling my DK.
June 18th, 2009 - 9:27 pm
There’s no point to using SoC after you get SoV to 5 stacks since the proc is nearly the same damage, and SoV has a higher judgment. You’re just going to crowd up the CGDs for the nearly non-stop CS spam that is needed to maintain DPS (ugh).
If you don’t need any CC or target swapping, feel free to use SoV all the time. It’s going to cut completely through armor. For more agile target swapping and utility, SoC has more upfront damage and more mana to use utility.
Damage across the board has been hit in PvP with the new resilience changes, but it doesn’t seem like healing was touched at all… I have no idea how we’re supposed to stop healing long enough to make a kill since it’s probably going to take another few seconds to kill. Mana regen was made even more independent from replenishment, so it’s now possible that PvP mana regen is even higher for healers.
June 18th, 2009 - 9:34 pm
I look forward to these changes, but I can’t wait to get on the PTR to see what the numbers look like and how they effect PvP.
A few concerns I can’t wait to see is:
-If AoW only procs from WHITE CRITS. If that’s the case, It’s a total PvP nerf in the wrong direction.
-If repentance will remain nearly useless(especially if Seal of Corruption/Vengeance ends up being better for PvP).
-Judgment Damage. Will it be laughable?
June 18th, 2009 - 9:37 pm
KeK
I got Permanently Banned from wow forums btw. For “trolling.”
Offense:
* 0. GC 06/15/2009 02:35:42 AM PDT
You are incompetent and you need to step down. That is all.
“
June 18th, 2009 - 9:47 pm
Prot PvP anyone?
June 18th, 2009 - 9:59 pm
Allright. When I first read these changes last night on mmo-champion my first thought was “good god, not *again*
”
Now that I’ve cooled down a bit and had put some thought into this..
I am seriously not sure where blizzard wants to go with ret paladins. And I feel that they too are uncertain. The thing that worries me most is the new Crusader strike and the Exorcism change for PvE, but until I can see some numbers - I won’t say if it’s a buff or nerf.
Am afraid it’s a nerf. I am simply not sure if a 4sec CD Crusader Strike is able to compensate for the loss of dmg (down from 138% with the Libram from badges/naxx to 75% weapon damage) from CS and the RNG-ness of the new exorcism. I suppose Exorcism has been buffed a bit for pvp…but yeah..
I want to see some numbers first so I can compare my CS damage in PvE now with how it’ll be, hence why I’m fixing the whole PTR thing (once again).
I. Am. Not. Optimistic. :/
June 18th, 2009 - 10:47 pm
@Rahmiel
“Maybe they should make SoC (or CS or DS) refresh the SoV stacks, that way we can start with SoV and then swap seals. Still have to see what they change SoC to. And that SS change, with FoL… does that seem more like a ret buff than anything else? SS procs, AoW procs, FoL yourself, if it crits, we get 2 hots?”
So on every trashmob on ulduar you would do sealswapping? Hello mana drain and annoying gameplay. No and no. We’ll simply see if SoC can match the new SoV or the other way around.
June 18th, 2009 - 11:32 pm
Ret is dead
June 19th, 2009 - 12:02 am
what I am wondering is if we need to stack more hit now for exorcisme and will they turn down the amount of mana that is used for it, and if we need to consider spell pen. 1,5 sec cd isn’t that much so I guess it will be one of our major attacks
June 19th, 2009 - 12:06 am
I don’t believe we are dead, it will be different yes but not dead well not for me it is. I am abit worried with if we can keep up a rotation with our small manapool 4 sec cd on crusader strike + more exo will mean more mana use
June 19th, 2009 - 12:14 am
For most raiding rets the cast time will prolly drop to 1 second, as most rets in PvE gear at least have around…say ye 300 haste rating
June 19th, 2009 - 12:37 am
@Earendil
The changes to Crusader Strike are a buff I think, in the long run. We’re casting it three times in 12 seconds instead of twice, and despite the decreased initial damage, are doing 35%(?) more damage in the long run. Not sure if my math is right, I’m tired right now.
That said, I don’t like the look of these changes.
June 19th, 2009 - 12:46 am
Crap I had it wrong not our cd is lowered from exo but our cd is increased , ….. error
June 19th, 2009 - 12:55 am
The reason I say ret is dead is because they didn’t actual fix a single problem. I think Blizzard is the best con artist in the world. They break your legs, then give you crutches. After grabbing the crutches they say: look without us you couldn’t walk!
June 19th, 2009 - 2:53 am
@Benedictous
The only problem they “fixed” was our burst damage in pvp…. which they said wasn’t a problem in the first place. Case of fixing what’s not broken much?
June 19th, 2009 - 3:26 am
Lukant, i think you mean that a cast time was put on Exocrism, quote:
* Exorcism: Now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can once again be used on players.
And true that Benedictous, I see however some good changes…at least we have SOME sort of rotation now..although not the changes I’d like to see, and many other rets I deem
June 19th, 2009 - 3:48 am
Glyph of Seal of Command: Redesigned to cause the Paladin to gain 8% of base mana each time the paladin judges Command.
So.. it looks like they’re planning to make SOC the pve seal of choice. I don’t know about you guys, but the description of Veng/Corrupt seems to make me feel it might be a better choice. I guess we’ll have to wait till ptr.
June 19th, 2009 - 5:19 am
good god! 90% of these posts so far have been…
“OH MY GOD!! THE SKY IS FALLING!! LOOK OUT!!!”
seriously though, nobody is quite sure how it all works yet since the PTR isn’t up. I personally think the dev’s are trying thier best to seperate ret pve and pvp, hence SoV and SoC. Think of it this way, when we all use sotm/sob for pvp AND pve they cant really mess with our damage because it will affect one or the other. Hopefully if they manage to make it so paladin’s use sov for pve and soc for pvp, they can finally start looking at some pvp/pve offensive utility.
At the end of the day can’t be any worse than “oh sweet, seal of the crusader makes me do some sweet deeps!1!” -_-
June 19th, 2009 - 5:36 am
Most of you are wrong.
We have been buffed for PVE and PVP. Exo will once again be usable in PVP and if you have at least a 32% chance to crit then your AoW will almost always be up every time Exo is up.
SoV will be our PVE seal of choice, and SoC more than likely the PVP seal of choice. You will get more damage with the new CS overall. You will also get more seal damage out of it as well. Not to mention that with talented SoP you will be doing more seal damage once you get to 5 stacks as well as getting more out of the DoT accompanied with it.
We have no clue what the new coefficients are for seals respective judgments so relax.
The sky is not falling. Repeat, the sky is not falling.
Don’t get me wrong we still need some tweaking. However, Retribution and Holy will be getting the most attention this PTR out of any specs in the game. So download the PTR and make sure to leave the rubbish comments you left here at home, test, and make constructive comments on the PTR forums.
June 19th, 2009 - 8:14 am
I do think a lot of the sky is falling comments about crusader strike are coming too soon. Part of it is that people are equating our talented crusader strike versus the released patch notes for the new one.
Base crusader strike is 110% not 138%
Post 3.2 base crusader strike is going to be 75%
So far Blizzard hasn’t announced any nerfs to the talents that increase crusader strike damage so really it’s not going to be 75% weapon damage every 4 seconds it’s going to be ~ 100% weapon damage every 4 seconds.
12 seconds in combat CS damage only.
New: 3 swings, 100% each = 300% weapon damage over 12 seconds
Old: 2 swings 138% each = 276%
Now if Art of War and sanctity of battle get nerfed then it is in fact a terrible blow to our overall DPS. If they stay the same though it is a small increase. This is speaking entirely from the perspective of crusader strike.
24 seconds in combat:
6 new CS vs 4 old.
600% vs 552%
36 seconds:
9 new vs 6 old.
900% vs 828%
The longer the fight lasts the more that new CS outweighs old CS assuming you use CS whenever it is off CD.
June 19th, 2009 - 8:31 am
I honestly QQ’ed hard when I first saw the changes. Then after a few hours I started thinking about it thoroughly and I’m thinking this might actually be a descent buff for PvE. Assuming talent trees don’t change at all and none of the talents are really reworked, 5/10/56 looks like it would be the new PvE Spec (Seals of the Pure and Vindication WILL actually be useful). We would be speccing into all three trees which well is what a hybrid should be doing imo.
If the Seal of Vengeance glyph isn’t changed, it will be pretty sweet. 10 Free Expertise! YES! PLEASE! THANK YOU! It means you can focus so much more on other stats, because Expertise Cap will be SOOO much easier to reach.
June 19th, 2009 - 8:46 am
@Qarak
Separating PvP and PvE is a poor decision and as evidenced with Blizzard’s failed attempt to make SoB/SoM a PvE seal, it doesn’t work. Name another class that substitutes different set of abilities in PvE and PvP within the same spec.
@Charmin
AoW proc chance is much lower in PvP. Resilience reduces chance to crit. Many players have enough to reduce crit chance by at least 9%, with healers going close to 12%. So you only have an effective ~20% crit chance. That’s 1 in 5 attacks or once every 18 seconds on average. But it’s random, so it will be a pain in the ass to plan for.
I’m not surprised that the people saying “the sky ISN’T falling” are the people that don’t understand class mechanics and design history.
June 19th, 2009 - 9:18 am
@Charmin
At first glance this is a nerf. Consider this
What has been the more or less only PvE buff (if we can call it that)? Crusader strike cooldown change. Let’s say that the overall damage for CS really goes up
In those 2 seconds we gain on Crusader strike, the dps we lose from the instant Exorcism, does the 2 sec shorter CD on CS make up for it?
Right now CS deals 137-138% of weapon damage
It is being drawn down to 75% weapon damage
Will the two extra seconds we gain be able to compensate for this? Perhaps, perhaps not. PTR testing will show. Will it be able to compensate for the lost insta-exorcism casting?
Considering that Exorcism is tied to Art of War, is it logical that you can always rely on it to proc? No. Most of your attacks are coming from abilities, and all in all, the current system with AoW proccing from CS, DS and Judgement gives a far more often AoW proc than the new system will. If Exorcism was tied to this ‘old’ AoW proc system, i’d accept it.
Not to mention that this is a punch in the face for anyone leveling up as a paladin, that exorcism is quite good for leveling rets that want that extra attack that we always lacked. Now they have to contend with waiting for AoW to get it to proc so they can get it instantly…perhaps. And anyone who doesn’t have AoW (i.e level 30’s etc) will be happily casting their 1.5 sec cast to do 600 damage. Worth it? No.
As for the Vindication change..PvE buff if it affects bosses..else its useless. PvP nerf in general. I mean…mages and warlocks are truly known for stacking high amounts of attack power
We’ll simply have to wait and see what happens, we can cry all we want about it if it’s a nerf in any case.
Not like Ghostcrawler will listen.
June 19th, 2009 - 10:01 am
No offense intended, but people here seem to be continually coming up with these terrible numbers for CS (i.e. going from 138/148/whatever percentage up there different people are claiming) to dropping straight down to 75%.
That’s wrong. Remember that CS damage is modified by talents, buffs, and certain librams, guys, and that the damage percentage in its tooltip changes to reflect that. However, before *any* modifiers, it’s 110%. So, that’s a 35% damage drop on the base strike. Still nothing to sneeze at, but not nearly as bad as many of you were making it out to be.
June 19th, 2009 - 10:36 am
Yes, you may be able to do 3 CStrikes now in 12 seconds instead of 2, but that’s ONLY if you can get all those CStrikes out. I mean, with all of our other skills (talking PvE raiding) to make sure to let out as soon as they are off CD, Judge, Exorcism, DS, Consencration, having a four second skill is seriously going to mess up rotation, and CS won’t be used to its fullest extent. So it’s not a “buff” at all.
June 19th, 2009 - 10:56 am
Except as it stands CS is still going to be our highest priority ability. In other news, a couple of new blue posts
**in regards to a stopcasting Exorcism Macro**
The intent is that macro will not work in 3.2 (for Ret paladins or Enhancement shamans). The intent is that you have to push the button at the right time, not just have the game push the button for you all the time.
Stopcasting a spell in this manner should reset your swing timer (at least for those two classes). We’re not 100% sure at this time how the fix will work, but that’s the intent or we would not have made this change.
Hopefully Art of War will cause it to not affect the swing timer (as i expect it will, fortunately there are any number of ways to make having the AoW buff more visible before you hit that button.)
** in regards to where our damage SHOULD end up**
Nobody has any idea of the numbers yet so they are guessing at best. PvP burst damage (say in the first 4 GCDs) should go down. PvP damage over time should be about the same (modulo the resilience changes). PvE sustained damage should go up.
June 19th, 2009 - 11:04 am
correct me if i’m wrong, but i think dar is right about the cs numbers. cs is currently 110% of weapon damage for every 6 seconds, so in 12 seconds u would get 220% of weapon damage assuming there’s no modifiers (sanctity of battle +15%, the art of war +10%). with the new cs doing 75% every 4 seconds it should add up to 225% every 12 seconds. soo theres less burst coming from cs but slightly more damage over all.
June 19th, 2009 - 11:26 am
Bougala, that’s correct, but it assumes we can use it every 4 seconds. I haven’t seen any rotation theorycrafted yet, but I have a suspicion that it will fall short.
As for PvP, we already fall short of killing good players even through chain CC. Further nerfs on top of the resilience will completely break us. In PvP, it’s basically CC the healer or get them out of LoS and then use 3 to 4 special attacks to try and kill someone. Good players rarely open themselves to long CC chains and the target person usually has an escape or damage reduction ready. After those 4 specials, if you haven’t scored a kill, the fight pretty much resets. With lower burst and the resilience change, we’re doomed to being carried in 3s and 5s like in BC. The resilience change alone would have stopped our “insane burst”.
June 19th, 2009 - 11:35 am
it is impossible to really tell what is going to happen because we have no numbers to juggle. the only significant problem is that a strike on a four second cooldown with a 1.5 second gcd doesn’t work that well, simply because of the incongruity of the cooldowns.
June 19th, 2009 - 1:13 pm
Basic fundamental is that we have to do more to do the same DPS in PvP, but the complex situations in PvP don’t allow for anywhere close to that output.
Just the change to make us use SoC would have been a large nerf in and of itself from the current SoB. Add that on top of resilience being a flat damage decrease, more GCD collisions with CS, (recently) reduced HoF so we have less time on target, and it’s a huge blow to our ability to kill anyone. Instead of reduced burst, this is almost no burst. I’m quite confident in saying with the changes that my DK has burst much, much greater than my paladin. We have no new utility to make that reduced damage count for more. Blizz has nearly closed all the openings we used to use.
Instead of our burst being nerfed for more damage, or more utility, it was just nerfed flat out with no real compensation in PvP. The reduced AoW procs are going to make Exorcism a crummy souvenir since you will use them all for FoL (interrupting CS at the same time). If anything, it is encouraging us to play more like single minded idiots just focusing one target forever with SoV.
As it is right now, we barely scrape by dealing with healers in our so called OPed state. It doesn’t take more than common sense to see that the changes will make 2v2 almost unplayable. The 1:1 ratio of DPS to healer in that bracket will be improbable in terms of wins as the chance you will out DPS or out-burst healing is very small now. Running a healer dry isn’t something I think is even possible now.
PvE might not have much difference on bosses, but for certain, our damage on trash packs is going down. SoV won’t have time to stack, and SoC isn’t as good as SoB.
Sky might not be falling, but we’re still being hit hard by something nasty.
June 19th, 2009 - 1:20 pm
@ Azoic, just wow.
THat fucking fagtard needs to be out of power now. fucking piece of shit needs to be put in his place.
KeK
I got Permanently Banned from wow forums btw. For “trolling.”
Offense:
* 0. GC 06/15/2009 02:35:42 AM PDT
You are incompetent and you need to step down. That is all.
FUCKING DIPSHIT NOOBFUCK.
June 19th, 2009 - 2:06 pm
@Dar
Ah sorry, I was only looking at my own stats and took the numbers straight off, was writing that while doing a few other thigns so some numbers could’ve been wrong. But the point of my post wasn’t maths or anything,the point is if the changes can make up for the seemingly lost dps.
But yes as I said, will test it on PTR and see how my dps changes.
June 19th, 2009 - 4:25 pm
Hey, guys, listen up. If I hear one more of you sissies whine about this test patch, I’ll come to your house and steal your dog. Blizzard will not let this patch go live and everything will be fixed before it hits the live realm. Ret DPS will be up 10-25% over what it is now in PvE, and PvP will change by giving ret a lot more control while reducing burst about 8-10% from what it is now, allowing for some skill to show through. It will be awesome. Even I will be forced to admit that Blizzard is the bee’s knees.
Want to know how I know this? I’ll tell you how I know this. Blizzard ALWAYS makes patches right before they hit the live realms. They NEVER let a bad patch through, and always use the time on the test realms to fully wring out and tweak the changes. Just look at our past change patches, and you will see that I’m right, and that you need to stop complaining abou…..
Ok, I can’t keep that that up even in text form. Paladins are fucked like a donkey in Tijuana, and you all know it.
June 19th, 2009 - 7:57 pm
There are only three changes that worry me about these notes (pertaining to ret).
First is the 4s CD on Crusader Strike, obviously. More frantic button mashing.
Second is Judgement of Command - “substantially less damage” is extremely worrysome.
As for Art of War only triggering on melee critical strikes - if it still triggers from CS and DS (technically melee attacks), then I’m fine with it. But I have a feeling it’ll be white attacks only, which would suck.
The rest of the changes - Exorcism, Art of War affecting it, Vindication - I can live with, and even understand.
June 19th, 2009 - 10:49 pm
From what I’m reading from Endoscient (Rawr Ret) and Redcape (Ret Spreadsheet), they both have calculated a dps gain from current changes.
That is though, by taking some assumptions with SoV glyph and SoV future mechanics in general.
I do agree though, that its doesnt “read” like they changed much in the way we do dps.
But maybe once I get to test it out in the ptr, it’ll feel different.
June 19th, 2009 - 11:06 pm
Normally, I’m quick to judge. (See what I did there?) But this time, let’s relax, wait for it to hit the PTR where we can dissect it. Still, the way it looks, we’ll be making out pretty nicely, if not ahead for the changes. Getting a 5 stack of the DoT goes pretty fast with the current rotation. And if we’re greatly underperforming, maybe we can lobby for a few more ups. Like getting that AoW proc for Exorcism to be seperate of the FoL insta-cast, and more like Sudden Doom. Or a few things off our GCD timer, since we’ll be burning them even faster with 4 sec CS’s.
June 20th, 2009 - 1:06 am
I don’t think its going to change a whole lot. I think we will still be on FCFS with perhaps Judgement moving in front of CS at worst…or maybe similiar to Fury where you pound two keys, maybe a third, till your instant cast pops and then it becomes No. 1 priority…This is the first of a long road of changes, as I see it, we have been the most changed lass for as long as I can remember, and thats the only thing thats stayed the same.
I like seeing blood go…I know I have had times where a 5k took me out because I just lost 2k on a judgement or something…But, I think the majority of QQing from PvE paladins was because they had no clue how to be quality raid members more than just quality DPS…
We are losing utility (JoL no longer scaling off AP/SP combination) and perhaps gaining some DPS…we have to figure out where we are going to end up…I like high utility/decent DPS over mediocre utility/mediocre DPS for getting a raid spot, personally…
Our biggest competition right now for raid spots is perhaps DKs…we have them beat with our Divine Shield, Cleanse (great for the fusion punch on steelbreaker to help out the healers), instant Flash of Light, Seal of Light (gain, great for detonating lashers on freya 3 trees) and a few other slight abilities that make bringing us worth it. If we lose utility, we better beg for buffs…or go holy…
June 20th, 2009 - 1:18 am
SoV is obviously pve and SoC for pvp… because sov will break repent etc and stacking it sigh, but i think some people will still use SOV in pvp because of the double crit dmg. Wait whats that? we nerfed burst and yet give you something todo more burst with?
CS + SoV is a BUFF for pve ONLY if we can fit the CD rotation correctly, and depending on how big the judgement nerf is and if excorcism was buffed any.
I really see consecrate and Divine plea being hard to put it now tho just scribbling a rotation on a notepad.
June 20th, 2009 - 12:42 pm
Something everyone should take a look at:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=66407.0
Regarding some theoretical maths around the new ret changes.
June 20th, 2009 - 1:01 pm
Actually you know the more i think about it the more i think blizzard sucks at wording as is making SoV strictly tanking.. and its 33% as in actually 33% not the 100% + the 33% im thinking it as. We get rabbit holed into SoC i bet..with ret doing the least dmg in judgements of the paladins.
June 20th, 2009 - 5:19 pm
Genetz
June 18th, 2009 - 3:45 pm Hey all,
“I am really looking forward to these changes, maybe the others will stop calling us faceroll….
I can dream.”
You know why the others call us faceroll? It is because even the DEVELOPERS called us faceroll. Now if even the DEVEPOLERS call us this, what do you expect the others to say about us? (I don’t think the developers started it, but they backed it up, and as authority figures in the game, what they say has a lot of weight.)
There has been a long standing pattern of the developers perpetuating the stigma of paladins as an inside joke at Blizzard and in the game itself.
There are many examples:
The Zull’garrub doll of a paladin with the flavor text; “…resembles an adulessent girl”
GC’s comment, when asked about the nerfs, “TO THE GROUND BABY” which paladin haters used to torment the community during the numerous nerfs to the class.
And there is the infamous broken IWIN botton that could be looted off of a paladin’s courpse in BGs.
And who could forget the Paladin-in-a-bubble toy given out at blizzcon last year…
…and the famous inside joke about paladins BUBBLEHEARTHING when in a bind.
As you may notice, paladins have been the object of redicule by players and developers alike.
June 21st, 2009 - 8:08 am
@elrom
Oh come on, for goodness sake!
YES there was a doll with the joke written on it in flavor text but thats all it was a JOKE!
The broken iwin button can be looted of any random player, its not only the paladin class.
As for the whole paladin in a bubble and bubble hearthing, the bubble is an iconic paladin ability so my guess is whenever blizzard is making a reference to the paladin class, wether it be on a toy or in-game, the paladin and the bubble will go hand in hand.
Now as far as these changes go for 3.2, they dno’t seem all that bad on paper but no one will know for sure how much of a nerf or buff we have recieved as a class this patch until the ptr goes live. I personally think its a little premature to assume we’re going back to the dark ages as a class until some testing has been done and some number’s have been crunched.
Let’s be honest ret and infact the whole class has come very far since its inception and for the most part its only been improving as time has gone on. So just suck it up and be patience and see how things turn out.
June 21st, 2009 - 8:59 am
@Qarak
It’s definitely a step backwards in PvP. The resilience changes alone are enough to reduce our perceived burst.
Sure, Ret always improves over time, but so does every other class. Ret has always been behind the curve. When WoW went live, it took a year to get the 1.09 patch that finally started to fix things.
June 21st, 2009 - 2:17 pm
I almost like the changes, mostly because ret was boring as hell and pressed me into my break from WoW. The problem is that now the burst is gone and we didn’t get ANY control tools or pvp tools. It doesn’t look good at all.
June 21st, 2009 - 7:41 pm
Qarak
June 21st, 2009 - 8:08 am @elrom
“Oh come on, for goodness sake!
YES there was a doll with the joke written on it in flavor text but thats all it was a JOKE!
The broken iwin button can be looted of any random player, its not only the paladin class.
As for the whole paladin in a bubble and bubble hearthing, the bubble is an iconic paladin ability so my guess is whenever blizzard is making a reference to the paladin class, wether it be on a toy or in-game, the paladin and the bubble will go hand in hand.
Now as far as these changes go for 3.2, they dno’t seem all that bad on paper but no one will know for sure how much of a nerf or buff we have recieved as a class this patch until the ptr goes live. I personally think its a little premature to assume we’re going back to the dark ages as a class until some testing has been done and some number’s have been crunched.
Let’s be honest ret and infact the whole class has come very far since its inception and for the most part its only been improving as time has gone on. So just suck it up and be patience and see how things turn out.”
Indeed it was a joke, a joke ar the paladin’s expense.
My attitude towards all this is like yours, I’m waiting to see how it all plays out.
June 21st, 2009 - 8:27 pm
@Exedore
Except you are forgetting that Judgement carries a flat +18% crit modifier. AoW should be up more often then you suggesting.
And since Exo has been relatively speaking a recent addition to PVP any ability or chance to use it is a BUFF to pvp.
Stop crying.
June 21st, 2009 - 9:26 pm
@Charmin
Start reading.
AoW is being changed to only proc on melee (white) criticals. I, like most PvP-geared Ret paladins, have about 30% crit and most PvP targets have around 10% crit reduction from resilience. That’s where I got 20%, or 1 in 5 attacks. With a 3.60 speed weapon, that ends up being about 1 proc every 18 seconds.
June 22nd, 2009 - 10:39 am
I’m not overly worried. Yeah we’ll take a bit of a hit, but we’re still a long way from going back to lolret. Our burst isn’t gone, it’s just not so front now.
June 23rd, 2009 - 12:06 am
@Exodore
You were right that I hadn’t fully understood the AoW changes, but regardless, what I said still stands that it will ALMOST always be up when Exo is up, and that is assuming everything else (cooldowns etc) stay the same. Even still it wouldn’t matter if Exo was only up once every minute it would still be a BUFF.
It was very common to Exo, Judge, CS, DS and watch a target fall down and that was w/o even using Avenging Wrath.
The sky still ISN’T falling. Exo at its 3.0 release was over-powered. It gave us one more global to wreck ppl with. People need to accept this just as the community finally accepted how OP we were right after 3.0.
We still do not know all of the coefficients and changes that will be made to our spells so crying about it before we can prove how under or over-powered we are.
June 23rd, 2009 - 3:13 am
I agree with Exedore: “It’s definitely a step backwards in PvP. The resilience changes alone are enough to reduce our perceived burst.”
And I think that the new Exorcism will be a great nerf in our PVE DPS.
June 23rd, 2009 - 8:51 am
Exorcism has a cast time of 1.5 seconds but can be used on players again. great i like standing in one place getting beat on or watching people run away out of range before i can do anything. and CS cooldown from 6 to 4.. what about the gcd? not really a big fan of this.. ill test it but the way i read it, its just going to make me go back to my DK to dps or pvp. who knows, you think blizz will refund my 4.5 years of playing a pally if they ruin us? again!
June 23rd, 2009 - 8:54 am
o yeah, will i have to spec into command to get the rather week buff?
June 23rd, 2009 - 9:31 am
So… my DK is level 72 now!
June 23rd, 2009 - 9:41 am
yeah did you see their changes.. not bad. tho frost strike wont be the end all attack it use to be it still is pretty good. and im not sure where DW will end up, but hopefully it will be something worth looking into.
June 23rd, 2009 - 10:35 am
Talented SoV should be useful again on those pesky stealther’s, also against healers double crit’s and dots is sounding okay, they shouldn’t technically go down too quick, its not like they can damage you much anyways. gonna have to wait to test it based on actual seal damage numbers. I can see it now:
Druid “heh stoopid pallys tryin to kills me with lamo dots and low judge
(CS, stun, art of war - Exo, double SoV judge, DS, CS) = Dead Drood
Paladin “See, I didnt even use my bubble bitch”
1.5secs is a not too bad a cast time for the crit damage that could resul from Exo (granted not as often on high res players), might be a nice opener followed up by a quick repent though
Imo SoC on trash for PVE as it will proc off every DS hit (just like martyr/blood), and SoV on single target fights, still not sure about rotation with CS cd though. It will be nice to not have to catch up on dps during trash and lose that number one spot in boss fights, which I’m hoping is the direction this is taking us.
not too stressed as its early days, changes will be made most likely
June 23rd, 2009 - 1:06 pm
So, it seems we’re not facerolling enough. Blizzard thinks we need to smash our keyboard a little bit harder. 4sec. CS, I don’t know how the dps will become but one thing I would like to know it’s about our mana. With CS @ 4sec and all the stuff we do that requires mana, will we have enough mana till the end of the boss fights, and will we be able to afford to get mana burn for couple seconds. And don’t tell me to get the glyph for CS because I think when they took out SA from, we’re force to use the glyph to gain mana back. I think that is retarded. Glyph should be something we feel what is important and let us customize what we need, not something we MUST have. No more SoB/M, so how the hell we get mana now? WTF???
I think I read the blue post saying Vindication is OP. You know what I think it’s OP, the damn DK’s diseases. Do the ground shit, grab you in and you’re like fill with a million diseases on you, and same thing with the rouge’s poison, one hit god damn 10 stack of poison already on your ass. They are all debuff skills, why the hell our only 1 of 2 debuff have to suck ass now. So Vindication lower AP, then what about SP?? No debuff for those mages and locks that can cast 2-3 spells in 5sec??
This is new:
The Art of War now reduces the cast time of your next Flash of Light or Exorcism ability by 0.75 sec everytime your melee attacks critically hit.
June 23rd, 2009 - 4:27 pm
“one hit god damn 10 stack of poison already on your ass”
LOL
June 23rd, 2009 - 5:51 pm
The AoW note is referring to rank1 according to GC. Rank2 is still 1.5sec.
June 23rd, 2009 - 6:11 pm
not liking the changes I’m reading on the patch notes so far. 1.5 sec cast on exo but can now be used on players too? WTF! What about exo for pve? 1.5 sec cast doesn’t sound good at all. It doesn’t even sound great for pvp either. Vindication seems like it’s garbage now. I’m already not happy with the Eye for an eye nerf they did previously.
AoW procs changes don’t seem very good either. Melee crits only now to make it proc? WTF blizzard! As if our auto melee swings are all that great anyway. We’re using a slow 2 hander wpn for fuck sakes. I hope the “melee” hit from CS crits will count toward this proc too. If not, then fuck you blizzard. Seems like blizzard is really trying to push us into stacking on haste now with these changes.
June 23rd, 2009 - 8:08 pm
Well, I used to play a ret paladin, and quit at the end of summer 08. (Middle of season 4 I believe.) Ret wasn’t incredibly overpowered, still had some weaknesses, but it had a nice mix of the classic pre-bc Retadin I loved, combined with some new tricks that made it have decent damage or much more viable.
Now I’m looking at getting back into WoW, but I’m very discouraged… The only class I ever enjoyed (Pally) and the main spec I prefered (Ret) has apparently been completely redone. Initially looking into the first “Combat system changes” with the release of Wotlk were a little disheartening but the general feel of the ret paladin stayed the same.
However, all I’ve seen from this looks pathetic. Another failed attempt by blizzard to “fix” the one class that they have no clue what to do with. Its depressing paladins, ret in particular has undergone more changes and revamps than I’d imagine possible.
I feel like as soon as we’re moved up to par with every other class we’re instantly called out, cast down and nerfed/”overhauled” to a new weakened system…slowly rebuilt to be overpowered and than repeat.
June 23rd, 2009 - 9:47 pm
GC just posted in http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=18031094405&pageNo=1&sid=1#11
AoW isn’t white hit only it IS all melee hits. It’s up time shouldn’t be an issue, but still waiting for PTRs to go up for me to check it.
June 23rd, 2009 - 9:53 pm
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2039/wowscrnshot062309201003.jpg
Gotta love Blizzard’s sense of humor. ¬_¬
June 24th, 2009 - 9:23 am
I’ve quit playing wow for a while now so can someone suggest this to the devs.
Note: My kebourd is messed so certain keys arn’t working.
I think what they should do is make SoC proc at 50% with no gcd for thee procs with 35% additional holy damage. When proced, will also inflict ‘Mark of the guilty’ on the player which will be used for pvp reasons. This can stack to 5 with a talent which makes its resistant to dispell by 10/20% Judgment damage should remain and still crit on stunned targets or target under the effect of ‘Chains for the Guilty’(explained later)
Remove E4E and vindication since they’ve become useless and replace it will a skill called ‘chains of justice’ which does 50% of wep damage with a 15 sec CD and will consume the stack to slow the target for 20/40/60/80/100% for 2/4/6/8/10 secs depending on the stack. The target regains 20% of his speed every 2 secs. For example if the stack is full, the effect lasts 10 sec, regaining speed every 2 seconds while if the stack is only 3, the effect lasts 6 secs. I’ll call the effect ‘chains for the guilty’.
Repentence cannot be used unless there is atleast 1 MotG on the player but does not consume it. The duration is longer by 1 sec for every extra MotG. Thi way, we can’t unload upfront damage at the start with repentence.
Crusader strike should be 80% base damage with a 5 sec cd to not get tangled with the gcd with a mana decrease to fit accordingly. It does 7/14/21/28/35% more damage on targets with the debuff CftG depending on its rank. As the target regains speed every 2 secs, the extra damage dealt decreases by 7% every 2 secs.
I know your gonna h8 me for even suggesting this by just keep reading while biting your tongue; here goes.
I think they should nerf our damage to what they think is good for pvp then compensate for pve like this:
Conecrate hould heal other friendy targets on the holy ground for (7% of damage per second + 10% of spell power)(I’ll be honet those were random numbers but has some estimation but hey that how bliz does it =P)This effect will not heal YOU. Reason so you can’t heal yourself in pvp but because we’re a hybrid and we do acknowledge that we houldnt be doing as much damage as pure dps classes, this should be made up by being able to dps and heal at the same time, mostly the healing other melee dps clases which will releave the healers. This i taking it one step further from the heals from DS. Also when standing on your holy ground, holy damage increased by the percentage needed to make up the damage nerf. This with the combined effort of SoV. A new talent called ‘Improved consecration’ can be applied o all heals on enemy targets on the holy ground decreaed by 50%. If you’ve been reading the above you can think of a few tactics to deal with healers now.
Leave SoV as it is. If damage still too low in PVE, buff it but not so it is more appealing for PvP. Alo if SoC ends up doing moe damage the SoV, hotfix MotG so it cant be stacked on NPCs.
My aim from these changes is to make SoC NEEDED for pvp, even if they dont like it as much as SoV. The general tactic for pvp would be to stay alive which will make us use survivability skills while our dp is not enough to kill the player but our aim is to stack MotG. When you think you have enough stacked unleash CoJ and ue consecrate. This tactic is dangerous to helears if you’ve taken into account the above. Also you have kiters traped while you do high burt damage. Thi wont be OP caue we control this and is preventable and even easy to get out of if their trinkets arn’t on cooldown. You ee how much more intereting the spec ha beome with these changes as it requires us to think before pressing buttons and we must time things right to get the ‘retribution’ to be at it’s full effect.
The new AoW would also fit perfectly into this design. If it is OP/UP then there are fairly obvious areas you can nerf/buff. If they apply this, i would play wow again so can someone sugget this. And tell me your thoughts on it.
P.S I don’t wanna reroll cause holy warriors is my playstyle =)
June 24th, 2009 - 9:39 am
Actually the conencration should effect should also effect holy heals as well so holy pallie can use it too.
June 24th, 2009 - 10:24 am
well the changes dont look to bad. it will change how we roll tho. im just mad to see Exorcism is a 1.5 sec cast.. great for bosses you got to keep moving on huh. Seal of the Martyr is being removed, well in y raid last night on uldar recount show me that SoM did slightly more them my melee hits.. well there goes half my dps there. look Seal of Vengeance new redesign aint going to cut it. neither will Seal of Command. Vindication will do awesome against all the spell casters because you know they stack attack power. AoW only procs on melee crit hits now.. well screw that period. and CS will do less damage but the CD is shortened.. well the math is there that says this is good.. but with GCD and probably clashes with other things up i think it will be as good as the MATHLEETS say it will be.
with a crappy debuff, practically no cc or slow effect that every other class dont have 5 ways to sunday to get out of. our only range now has a 1.5 sec cast time unless AoW is up. might as well pin a tail on us and call us a charlie browns kite.
now i know this will go to the testing realm, but face just looking at this at face value, it doesnt look good.
June 24th, 2009 - 12:40 pm
1.5 sec cast on exo does not sound good at all. It seems like blizzard is once again screwing things up trying to make it viable for pvp and pve. Why not just lessen the damage on it or something? Or at least just give rets a new ability to make up for this loss of exo for pvp…
With this 1.5 sec cast, I don’t see how using this in pve will do any good. It’s all gonna be situational really. In my opinion, it’ll only make sense to use exo now on fights where we have to run and have stay out for a few seconds. No more exo while running in eh? No more exo for dps rotation too… unless AoW is up.
Vindication changes really seems unneccesary just like the eyeforeye nerf. I may just be misjudging these new changes to ret paladins, but it really doesn’t look good so far.
June 24th, 2009 - 4:39 pm
Ive been on the ptr and it sucks
You need the improved seal talents to do more damage than live, in my gear i was about 300 dps higher on the heroic target dummy BUT with huge mana problems. Consecration is only dropped like every 2nd or 3rd rotation. Crusader strike mana cost needs to go wayyy down. Also it being 4 seconds it is what my friend would call a “global cooldown cluster f***.” We almost need unholy aura now…
Aoeing will suck, switching targets will suck.
Seal of Command just plain sucks and trying to even pressure a healer will be much much worse (cant switch to vengeance lol dispel.) Bursting down a non-healing class in a hoj will probably have the same outcome as before.
June 25th, 2009 - 11:00 am
I really need to get onto the PTR to test this out, once I figure out what is going wrong with the download.
But, from how it sounds SoV, with the DoT, does better DPS than SoB. 4 second CS highly out DPSs 6 second CS (people keep forgetting the seal proc when doing the math). But, mana is now a bigger issue.
All I want is for us to be capable of a sustained PvE DPS rotation that does properly balanced DPS. Forcing ourselves OOM with constant consecration to do UP DPS is lolret. A sustained DPS rotation with some consecrations is perfect if they are going down the mana management path.
The biggest fears I have are that 1) blizzard do not balance us properly, and we are either left UP with sustained DPS or OOM with close to balanced DPS. If we are to be constrained by CDs AND mana management then they have to make sure we are balanced.
And 2) We become too dependent on buffs. Part of the whole TBC lolret was that we had to have WF totem to be even close to viable. If mana becomes a massive issue then int and MP5 buffs become absolutely huge buffs. Do they balance us on the mana regen from full raid buffs, or do they balance us around none or some raid buffs. And then will we only be viable in the right groups. Balance around mana management with ret risks us either being UP unless we have every mana buff going, or OP if we have every buff going. The current method with essentially infinite mana for DPS and CDs restricting our DPS output works. I am not sure it is possible to balance us around mana regen and CDs, especially given blizzards past record with ret balance.
June 25th, 2009 - 8:35 pm
Really, Blizzard just needs to get it right and redo the entire class from the bottom up at this point, their changes don’t help and they don’t seem to know what they are doing with the class. I would much rather relearn my class/spec once they relearning parts of it several times like we’ve been going through.
June 25th, 2009 - 11:00 pm
It took me, a boomkin and a hunter to kill a priest…. sigh
June 26th, 2009 - 9:00 am
I agree with the mana issues. Very bad and needs to be fixed!
June 26th, 2009 - 11:47 am
Hmm, think I read somewhere that JotW got nerfed
June 26th, 2009 - 2:12 pm
so far my live toon didnt get copied over yet but i do have a pally copy on both pve and pvp that im tring out.
i havent had time to do any raiding but i tested out on the dummy and did WSG a whole mess of times.
if you have a 29 - 30 crit then art of war will be up almost every time you need it for the exorcism. even in pvp.it took a hit or 2 but but its nothing to rely on.
i did have issues on the dummy with the 4 sec CS when getting down a rotation while still trying to use exorcism. it was either wait the 1 sec then CS and lose the instint exorcism or lose the .5 sec on the GCD
on CS. either way its not do bad dps. about 3800 - 3900 with self buffs on 1 min fights.. 2 min fights i lose 600 dps do to wings and the trinket you get being down. and yeah, mana was an issue. and not taking any friendly fire means you wont get healed so you wont get any mana back short of switching to wisdom seal is you really are desperate.. unless you get the command glyph and use command.. but in PVE it isnt as good as vengence in the dps department. you could try doing a swap mid battle, but then most likely it will turn into a cluster funk. especially if your one of those ret pallys that uses him or herself as raid utility.
its not the “sky is falling” on us ret pallys in PVE but PVP is another story. if your not fast a good rogue will zrg you in like no time flat. good luck being able to bring down restodruids. unless you out gear them theres no way without our burst dmg. priests are some what the same way but its possible. all the other classes are really down to skill.
if tho you miss the burst dmg then heres something i did.. speced for pvp prot and wore a mix of holy and tank gear.. ran a few WSG where i didnt die once in the new timed bg’s could stand up and take a beating by 6 sometimes 8 people. you might not get alot of killing blows but you will get the HK’s and alot of them. and the best thing is i never once ran out of mana.
June 26th, 2009 - 2:49 pm
“and not taking any friendly fire means you wont get healed so you wont get any mana back”
Spiritual attunement was removed long ago mate, no mana is given when you’re healed unless you’re specced into SA, which lies very deep in the protection tree mate :/
June 27th, 2009 - 12:21 pm
I’ve seen alot of math done lately both on EJ and MMO. It appears to be just straight up math comparisons beween ptr and live that shows a dps increase.
Has anyone done a posting that takes the cooldown clashing and mana issues we’ve been seeing into account on the ptr?
June 27th, 2009 - 2:49 pm
“Spiritual attunement was removed long ago mate, no mana is given when you’re healed unless you’re specced into SA, which lies very deep in the protection tree mate :/”
really.. gawd! ive not noticed that. well theres my blond moment. see what happens when you dont need to pay attention to mana.. you lose all function.
anyways.. has anyone dualed a warlock… a good one.. not someone whos just trying them out. seduction is by far ridiculous. even speced to move faster you cant get to them at all it seems. between 8 different warlock i was barely able to get down below half health between seduction, fear, and there teleport, good luck using vengeance on them.. i think justice poped once out of 3 duals. and pvp gear didnt make a difference.
the T9 gear is nice.. didnt have to worry about hit cap to gem for it. just sucked that i had to borrow enchants from my DK to enchant them.
still havent raided yet.. either the raids are down or i dont have the time to do them.. and it stinks because i wanted to try out the new DW spec on my dk. i want to see if its any better. maybe even get the (death chill?) or what ever the name of the enchant is from the holiday boss in slave pens. was hoping that it would be worth looking into as a frost DPS and PVP spec
in prot spec was a little better but no much. still didnt win.
June 29th, 2009 - 11:20 am
So, I just copied over a premade ( wanted to see what Blizz said were BiS shinys… eh, could use some work lol), got one fatal error while in Dalaran, so I’ll keep it short. I never had a problem with instants Exo’s going off, I seemed to have always had the buff, even with a crappy 28% crit (couldnt find a meta for my helm), so that was nice. CS wasn’t too bad, I glyphed in the reduce mana, brought it down to 245 mana… thought i think it should still be less IMO. Otherwise everything was pretty good, I JC on my main so I used some dragon’s eyes, I like the stat buff on them, however they wernt applying my socket bonuses, so I was down on a few stats, not anything too important though. Um, some final number, which prob don’t apply too much but here goes with what Blizz gave me: 1747 Str, 8.87% hit… even with gems, which is pretty sucky, 28.19% crit (again missing the meta), 4611 AP (with imp BoM), and 266 haste rating, which made Worldcarver wep speed 2.99. I only hope that they fix some mana issues and some theorycrafter finds a suitale rotation lol.
June 30th, 2009 - 4:50 am
After reading the patch notes for the nth time, I just thought of this now, and I’m sure others have thought of it (and I feel stupid for thinking about it so late), but with the redevelopment of SoV and the removal of SoB, might it be more effective for a ret paladin to stack on agi and crit instead of str and AP? Since with 5 debuffs of SoV crits deal double damage, so with a currently 7k Judgment, which reduces to lets say 6k because of gemming going to agi and crit instead of str and ap stack, you can do 12k with a 40% chance (raid buffs) instead of 14k with a 35% chance?
Or have I just crossed a line by saying that STR and AP aren’t top priority anymore?
June 30th, 2009 - 4:54 am
And about the mana issues, if Blizzard would JUST PLEASE make a Seal of Corruption Glyph that gave us back some mana every time we hit a target with 5 stacks of the Corruption debuff.
=/
June 30th, 2009 - 8:35 am
I’m sure that blizzard will fix a few things before the patch goese live. using excor in pvp again is a good thing, but god damn it why take away SoB/SoM out and nerf our only other pvp Seal?? (seal of comand). So are we going to have to use Seal of Vengeance/Seal of Corruption for pvp and pve now?
Question: Why The fuck can’t 2’s teams get Season 6 gear? LIKE WTF?!
Is there even a point to do 2’s anymore?
With the 2’s changing, I think Blizzard is killing pvp.
June 30th, 2009 - 12:58 pm
Vuldin, NO! NO! NO! NO stupid Glyph that give mana. It’s a stupid idea and a bandage fix! Glyph should be something that we can choose and pick which is something important to the player, not something we MUST have in order to DPS or just keep our DPS rotation. NO stupid glyph.
By the way, on the lock, have anyone fight shaman, lock, rouge combo? crazy burst dmg. i have about 25k hp. rouge stun poke me couple times, shaman heroism, lock incinerate 6.5k, chaos bolt 9.5k, conflagrate 6.3k, and then i’m /gg don’t even have time for divine shield. i have 698 resilience, totally useless. Why heroism is allow in arena?
Then I went to armory to check the lock, he was full Furious gear at the 1200 rating 3v3 bracket. WTF??? They need to do something about that. I believe they need to match the item level of the players before sending them in. And players should not be able to change their gears while Q up for arena.
June 30th, 2009 - 7:13 pm
This new “overhaul” to paladins is merely another phase of Blizzard’s “TO THE GROUND”, a slow, gradual, chain of nerfs, so the retribution spec tree is cast into oblivion once more.
So be sure to expect this: “while the retribution paladins still draw breath ,there can be no peace”.
I’m pretty sure blizzard won’t stop until Retrbution Paladins are either respecced or rerolled.
June 30th, 2009 - 8:08 pm
@Asuka
I would MUCH rather have a talent or a skill that would fix the Ret mana in 3.2, but if not, at least have a Glyph change that gives mana. I would even be happy with a stupid glyph that lets us use multiple Mana Potions in the middle of a boss fight, that would make more sense than the mana-less Rets we will become without the Seal of Blood glyph.
July 1st, 2009 - 7:35 am
After more thought… to help mana issues maybe they could put the Prot talent Guarded by the Light in a lower tier in the Prot tree, like 2 or 3. That should be able to keep ret mana good, but not too good, just the way they like it.
July 6th, 2009 - 11:47 am
this is like poking at a dead horse but first of all, we already have that kind of talent, its called judgments of the wise. then why the hell we need to spend another 2 points for mp? guarded by the light talent for ret its too OP. remember, that’s why they nerf judgments of the wise in the first place because we have “unlimited mana” in battlegrounds.