I’m sure you all saw the news; Vindication was nerfed;
Ghostcrawler
We are in the process of completing a hotfix that could go live as early as this afternoon that will make the Paladin talent Vindication no longer reduce Intelligence or Stamina from the target it is applied to. The talent will continue to reduce Agility, Spirit, and Strength as it currently does. We felt this change will help balance the ability out, especially in the lower arena brackets where they are very prominent, while not being a negative impact on a Retribution Paladin’s PvE dps.
Once this hotfix is live, the tooltip will be incorrect until we can update it in the next content patch.
A response was quickly posted by Wutangrza;
Balancing for low levels of PvP is so moronic that I’m having trouble coming up with the words to describe how idiotic it is. I don’t care if the talent needed a nerf or not, maybe it did, maybe it didn’t, but the fact that you have a blue poster openly admitting to balancing something around lower rated players is so incredibly dumb.
In a competitive system you have to balance based on what the best players are doing since they are the ones that are pushing the limit for what is possible with their class.
If you are turning with your keyboard you have way bigger problems than “HALP RET TOOK 20% MY STAMS! NERF!
Ghostcrawler’s Response
Increasingly it felt like someone playing against a Ret-Pally really only had 60% of their health bar because Vindication took away 20% from the start and then Hammer of Wrath kicked in when they had 20% left. This change was something we could confidently hotfix and would have a minimal to no impact on the PvE side of things.
And; my response; (Please go support if you feel you would like to do so.)
While one can agree from this perspective of the issue I feel as if you did what was best for the community but at the same time you again, ignored us in the process.
Vindication was a joke back in Vanilla and in BC UNTIL you changed it. Why did you change it? Because it wasn’t good enough.
Now, you are reverting it back to what it was. Leaving Paladins not only with 2 talent points to throw around in our normal 0/19/52 trees but also with a talent that once again, won’t be taken for both PvP or PvE.
I’m curious as why you would make this change without slightly changing the talent. Boost vindications reduction on the other stats or have it do something else, like preventing mana regen or something creative and useful for pvp.
I will note, that you are making Seal of Command a choice for these PvP builds, but until Command gets changed it still won’t be used 90% of the time.
Despite what your internal testing will tell you, leaving Vindication like this, means it won’t be touched by Paladins. It will only be a talent used to pick who you shouldn’t take in your group.
So, now that I am done rambling; Ghostcrawler, do you have any plans on making further changes to this talent in the future?
-Slayton
P.S. I would hope a PvP only talent has little impact on PvE.
Oh, and keep the apps coming, we will be accepting them for a little bit longer. Megaphone and me are reviewing all of them one by one in the admin page, you won’t be able to see it, but I promise you everyone is being reviewed by us.
-Slayton
June 8th, 2009 - 5:53 pm
I am just astounded by the lack of knowledge of past changes and lack of forethought seem to accompany the many changes/hotfixes the Ret tree has received.
I really, really, REALLY want to meet the class lead(s) for Paladins and figure out why they don’t seem to understand Ret in a way that allows them to balance it with the other classes successfully.
June 8th, 2009 - 5:55 pm
Bullshit.
THis is just the same thing over and over for us.
Nerf, after Nerf, after buff, then QQ, then nerf, and maybe one more buff + 3 nerfs… into 5 nerfs…
thank you blizzard for not giving a fuck what your paladin community thinks.
THank you blizzard, for banning people who you disagree with, or just deleting their posts.
Thank you blizzard, for being complete fags to your own customers.
thanks.
June 8th, 2009 - 5:58 pm
And the only people who knew what the FUCK to do with paladins were the people who designed them for wrath. Just imagine actually hitting 80 without all those fucking nerfs…. mages wouldnt have been so fucking op… dks would have been average, boomkins would have been usable, blizzards knowledge of pvp is lacking considering they make the game, and basically got owned in a 2v3 last year at blizzcon. they are so bad, they should just quit their jobs and let a fucking 5 year old do it, cause even he would do it better than these dipshits who are actually getting paid for this shit.
total fucking bs…
June 8th, 2009 - 7:01 pm
They dont even understand there own mechanics of Vindication, there dumb.
And this does effect PVE in some way, as it lowered the hp on all trash mobs on a boss fight, and even 1 of the 3 council members in iron council.
June 8th, 2009 - 7:11 pm
I am allowing myself an exceptionally bitter laugh, due to the fact that I actually WAS right way back when I was doomsaying how things would end up before wrath hit (when I quit). I had actually been hoping that I would be wrong, and that paladins would end up on the deck of the Good Ship Lollipop, rather than crushed under it’s bow, languishing in sub-par-land for yet another eternity.
This nerf just makes me laugh. They are dancing around the bush so fucking much that it makes me want to gag up a mostly eaten hunk of rye bread on blizzard’s shoes. They are doing everything possible to nerf paladins back into their BC status of under everyone else’s boots, and taking four years of sundays to do it, and yet they STILL BUST ON THE SCENE WITH AN EMERGENCY HOTFIX. Was the vindication ‘situation’ REALLY in such a dire strait that it needed to be HOT-FUCKING-FIXED one fucking day before normal maintenance? I mean REALLY?! Just be done with this shit and do a blanket nerf to everything and make paladins completely suck so we (well…you guys, anyway) don’t have to wait with knots in our stomachs for the NEXT emergency hotfix for the NEXT ‘gamebreaking’ paladin problem.
This is an official “I told you so”. Blizzard really does have some agenda against the paladin class. There is no possible way they don’t. It’s clear in all ways except their own admission that they are putting no effort at all in making paladins better, more powerful, or more fun to play, just more complicated to make perform, and less powerful in ALL cases. A hotfix for vindication for god’s sake, man!
I say it again Slayton, another game needs to come along and de-throne blizzard. They have obviously become retarded due to their unhindered market domination. WoW killed EQ (along with sony/verant/whothefuckeverelse’s bad ideas). Now, something needs to kill WoW. Oh, how I wish a GOOD D&D game would trundle along and smash this rotting husk. Or that Warhammer had actually been good. /sigh
June 8th, 2009 - 7:25 pm
Ok, so Vindication is bad now. But where else would we put those 2 points? We’re running out of alternatives to filler talents.
I loved Bornakk’s failed attempt at elementary school math. I’m sorry, but 20% of stamina is not the same as 20% of HP and HoW’s 20% is based on current max HP, so in effect, it’s 16% of the original max stamina.
And I have no idea why they took off intellect.
June 8th, 2009 - 8:19 pm
This is probably one of the more poorly designed nerfs I’ve seen. I guess ‘to the ground’ is still the mantra. I guess it’s time I work on a PvP alt, and chance my dual spec to tank. It’s only going to get worse for a while. *sigh*
June 8th, 2009 - 8:41 pm
Not only that, but it implies that HoW is a guaranteed 20% loss of health on any character, and that is simply not true.
June 8th, 2009 - 10:38 pm
At least we know what kind of retards have this retarded logic and why the class is turning to mush again.
June 8th, 2009 - 10:41 pm
If this continues down the road I think it will. Ret will be back to “LOLRet” like it was back in BC. Every chance Blizzard has they are gonna nerf us I think. They have used these approaches in the past where people complain enough to get a class/spec nerfed. If Ret returns to LOLRet then I will no longer play WoW. Screw rerolling I’ve put to much time into my paladin. I think if I were to post on the Blizz forums I’d get myself prema banned lol. It’s freaking annoying plain and simple with no real justification. Blizzard needs to pull their heads out of their asses and unfuck themselves before they destroy an entire spec.
/Signed Grumpy Dwarf Paladin
June 8th, 2009 - 10:46 pm
We can toss this little tidbit in there as well, but im not too worried as its worded as “immune” not “resists”.
* When immune to the stun of following abilities, Maim, Bash, and Hammer of Justice will no longer cause player spells to be interrupted but they will still interrupt NPCs.
June 8th, 2009 - 10:55 pm
Can we chill with the conspiracy theories? Yes this change sucks and it will make us drop the talent, but at the same time lets not jump to conclusions right away.
Lets wait a min and see if they have a point in what they say and actually evaluate the situation. The main concern is that ret has too much burst, that coupled with a flat % decrease in all stats might seem too powerful.
What they’re trying to do is to give people a chance against the burst without really nerfing our already low damage in pve.
Nerfs suck and im also tired of all the paladin hotfixes, as it seems our overpoweredness is always so critical to the game and game balance. Which is kinda strange when you think about it.
June 8th, 2009 - 11:40 pm
They act like players start at 60% HP when they look at a paladin. When in fact it makes it even harder to Hammer of Wrath the target it has any heals incoming. The problem was Ret vs any DPS it was anywhere from 11% to 13% total heath i believe. The better the gear the more it hurt. So duel dps teams where losing to ret paladins because we have so many ways to get out of Stuns/CC/burst damage any 2v2 dps teams lost more most of the time. Which makes up alot of the 1500-1800 teams. Balancing around horrible players seems logical to me… freaking blizzard. Healers just became even harder to kill which was almost impossible for a ret atm anyways.
Also Hammer not interrupting casting after they become stun Immune is bull shit i think its about time for a kick/pummel.
June 9th, 2009 - 1:58 am
They should re-work the talent completely to reduce resilience on the target by a set %.
This way the QQ’ing green/blue quest reward scrubs that use BG’s to gear up (the guys that “force” Blizz’s hand to make such retarded changes) are not effected, but we still have a fighting chance.
Hurting the paladin so that we are not OP in low brackets and BGs is obviously going to have an effect on high brackets.
June 9th, 2009 - 2:28 am
•When immune to the stun of following abilities, Maim, Bash, and Hammer of Justice will no longer cause player spells to be interrupted but they will still interrupt NPCs
They had to sneak that one in there too.
June 9th, 2009 - 2:29 am
Forgot to mention that is 100% directed at the Ret / Rouge and Feral / Rogue combos.
June 9th, 2009 - 5:53 am
I am honestly thinking about quitting Arenas on my Paladin at the moment. Other than my 5s team (admittedly high ranked at 1980, which I think is top 100 for my BG) I can’t manage to find any other teams this season. In fact I curse my old shaman partner every day as he levels a new shaman to replace the old one that he lost due to being stupid.
But with all the nerfs, it is really making me wonder what state I will be in by the time he finishes leveling up.
I supported Blizzard for the longest time and wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt in WotLK. But they are quickly losing that all over again.
Oh and ya, Bornakk fails @ Math.
~Grumpy Tuesday Morning Dragonspear
P.S. I wish I hadn’t read this first thing in the morning =/
June 9th, 2009 - 6:20 am
It is really hard to keep getting these slaps in the face. Again, here is a situation where they are just going to “hotfix” it. I understand that they need to balance things, shift things around and try new stuff; I get it. What I don’t really understand though is why we always take a quick hotfix when we get stuff with OP from other classes until the next xpac.
I was never great at playing Ret, but I have made a real effort at it for the last year. I struggle getting to anything and then when I do, I don’t seem to make that much of a difference. I keep waiting for more utility and more buffs to help me out. Instead allot of things that actually gave me a chance, take nerf after nerf.
After struggling to even get 1700 in previous seasons along with my tools being nullified, shortened, taken away, it is now clear to me that I must really just suck. According to GC, they are now even looking into how to make me suck more at my already sucky sub 1500 rating. I give up.
June 9th, 2009 - 7:24 am
Quite right Exedore.
In the past we have suspected that no one at blizzard plays a ret pally, and that they don’t fully understand ret. But to get the maths on how both vindication and hammer of wrath wrong takes some doing. They seem to have just hit the forums, listened to the QQ and nerfed ret based on some crying persons post about vindication taking off 20% of their HP.
By my reckoning this is actually a buff to our burst because vindication makes HoW trigger at lower HP. So, it takes a little longer before we can use HoW. Without vindication we do exactly the same amount of damage, but can use HoW sooner.
And I suspect int is no longer removed as that is very painful to casters, if your int is cut by 20% then you lose mana.
June 9th, 2009 - 8:51 am
Just make it a stacking ability….
5% each time you get smacked with it, up to 20%. You can cleanse, dispell, whatever, to keep it from getting to 20%.
June 9th, 2009 - 9:00 am
A little more elaborate:
First – This will affect PvE in a way – Vin will reduce 20% of HP (read Stamina) on trash mobs. So now the raid will take 20% longer to clear those mobs. Not a big deal, I suppose. But timed instances could be affected.
Second – Just make Vindication a stacking ability….
5% each time you get smacked with it, up to 20%. You can cleanse, dispell, whatever, to keep it from getting to 20%.
Then if that is not enough, shorten the timer on it to 15-30 seconds. The timer gets refreshed each time a new layer of Vindication gets applied. But, if someone can lock you up, and then go and pillar hump, then the timer has a chance of expiring and the attributes restored.
June 9th, 2009 - 9:46 am
Why? Why?
Why are any of you still surprised? I don’t get it. This is business as usual out of Irvine. Blizzard has a long-standing and sordid history of doing just this type of thing to Retribution. A history going back to Vanilla beta. Do you honestly think ANYTHING is going to change the design philosophies set forth by the EQ jockies now running this show?
Blizzard has been doing this to Paladins since the Vanilla beta when they – for no reason that has ever passed the laugh test – scrapped the original Paladin combat system for Seal & Judge 1.0. You remember that, don’t you? The seal-and-autoattack-while-you-make-a-sandwich-or-fire-off-some-knucklechildren system? Zero interactivity, zero fun. Repeated cries for more of both were met with “We’re happy with how Paladins are.” and “Working as Intended.” Ret was a joke, so much so that most Paladins using 2h weapons were Protection primary for Reckoning, because the deep-Ret talents were – quite honestly – fucking meaningless. Ret stayed that way for somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 months.
Fast forward to 2.0, the TBC warmup patch. Crusader Strike originally had a 6 second cooldown. This lasted.. just about long enough for it to come off cooldown ONCE. Blizzard cranked up the cooldown and LEFT it there for the duration of TBC. Then introduced a knockoff-version of Death Wish that defensively crippled us – meaning no Paladin in their right mind ever used it for anything other than PvE – and called it a day. Result? Second verse, same as the first! Ret is a joke in PvP, and is so detrimental to any raid setting that the term “token ret pally” is coined. And is a literal term.
Fast forward to 3.0. The WotLK warmup patch. Divine Storm is holy damage. Avenging Wrath doesn’t cause Forebearance anymore. This lasts.. bout 5 minutes. Divine Storm is hotfixed to be You-Just-Paid-51-Points-For-Whirlwind-Storm, Avenging Wrath gets Forbearance back. And that’s when Blizzard decided to really go to work on Ret.
A ‘talent tree cleanup’ here – that cost us 14% judgement crit – a percentage tweak there – that rendered JotW incapable of sustaining a basic CS -> DS -> Judge rotation – and to top it all off, a nice steaming pile of various hotfix nerfs. But not all at once, mind you.
You can’t just drop 50 pounds of nerfs in someone’s lap without pissing them off, oh no no. You do it a few ounces at a time. That way when they figure out they’re being crushed, it’s already too late for them to do a damn thing about it.
Vindication and Eye for an Eye are just the first steps down a longer road, boys. They’re minor nerfs by themselves.. but Blizzard never sees the here and now. They see the long game. These talents would have affected something MAJOR that they have in mind – for someone else, of course – in a bad way.. and simply had to go.
Point being.. being Ret sucks. Get a fucking helmet and get used it, cuz it’s about to get bumpy.
June 9th, 2009 - 10:23 am
At least this is a good chance to re-work the talent itself. Something either affecting mana regen or damage output (MS for damage? Probably too good though) would both be interesting effects.
June 9th, 2009 - 11:49 am
I can only hope all these nerfs are ,,preparations,, for 3.2 when we finally get some healing reduced debuff or something we want for loong time ……
June 9th, 2009 - 12:09 pm
“By my reckoning this is actually a buff to our burst because vindication makes HoW trigger at lower HP. So, it takes a little longer before we can use HoW. Without vindication we do exactly the same amount of damage, but can use HoW sooner.”
Dumbest thing said here man. Think about it. If it was better to not have vindication on the target so much vs having it, then why would you spec into it in the first place…
June 9th, 2009 - 2:03 pm
Ret Aura – Nerf
Eye for an Eye – Nerf
Hand of Freedom – Nerf
Vindication – Nerf
It is not as bad as warrior and warlock, but the question is why?
I have a theory that the reason why we’re getting nerf is because of casters or range DPS.
If you are not wearing any PvP gears, mages and locks nowadays can crit you for more than 10k(How I know? Because I was playing as Holy in Battleground with no PvP gear). Survival hunters are like machine guns; therefore, Eye for an Eye hurt them if you have a healer that can spam heals on you then it will hurt them a lot. I think it hurts 2v2 if the other team don’t have a healer. It like the reason why they nerf ret aura. Why you can do damage without lifting a finger to do it?
Hand of Freedom – It is not ok for a melee to chase mages and hunter down, and yes, its perfectly fine for mages and hunters to kite us. orz
Vindication hurt mages -20% int, yes I know, that’s how I feel when they took my int off from my ret gears. So they nerf this to balance lower bracket arena?? I’m not sure their standard of “lower” brackets, but do they mean the ones that goes in with no PvP gear at all and with 14k HP? Yea, 20% hurts for them.
So base on this quick analysis, all of our “anti-range” talents and skills are being nerf. Therefore, I believe blizzard will always be blizzard; think Diablo 2 guys. Paladin is a joke, and so is WoW’s Paladin.
June 9th, 2009 - 3:12 pm
and exorcism on pets…
June 9th, 2009 - 3:30 pm
oo yea on exorcism…i forgot but have anyone try to use it on lock’s demon form?? i remember i got an immune message. i never got to confirm it, maybe i’m just an ignorance. so its not suppose to work on players at all? if so, they need to change the spell’s description…but i think holy wrath still works…QQ
June 9th, 2009 - 3:44 pm
Yeah it used to work on demon locks….
So not only are we weaker than we were before ‘exorcism’ was supposed to replace our dps lost with 10% less crit damage on our dot, but we dont even have that for pvp anymore… so… triple nerf by blizzard, nice way of sneaking it past us you doublefaced fags.
June 9th, 2009 - 3:51 pm
They should nerf healthstones from warlocks, they effectively add about the same hp vindication took away! NERFF.
June 9th, 2009 - 3:57 pm
when blizz first introduced the revamped the exorcism spell to work on all mobs and players, it was a brief sign that maybe blizzard was going to fix our many lacking abilities. But no within 1 week of it going live there was a stealth nerf that made it impossible for exorcism to function on players, fast forward a few weeks and another nerf to exorcism was that it can no longer be used on player controlled objects aka pets, the cannons and siege weapons in wintergrasp and strands of the ancients. I said it before and i will say it again exorcism will be returned to being only used on undead only.
I personally stopped using Vindication since mid TBC so this nerf doesnt really affect me, but the eye for an eye nerf i hate with a passion. I remember getting critted by an elemental shaman for over 18k and he only took around 600 and resisted the rest of it. Im sorry but to me Eye for an Eye means that the 18k i got smacked with, then he should take the same amount and that it cannot be resisted, dodged, blocked or parried. But that is me just bitching
June 9th, 2009 - 4:02 pm
@ slayton, i didn’t know that you started a toon on Drak’thul. I go by Olympius now on that server
June 9th, 2009 - 4:16 pm
Well thanks Mike and Dragonspear for pointing out the Exorcism. That just adds to my theory that the Exorcism nerf on pet is to protect the “range” players. And to nerf Exorcism against players, I’m sure it must piss off many “range” players since we can do some kind of damage against them while they kiting us.
Frog that’s a really good point too. It seems each class have their unique skills to help themselves and their teammates like healthstone for locks and mage food. And what do paladins get? Crusader Aura…very helpful in arena…should be ban from arena imo…
Once again, I am very badly informed on somethings, you can’t judge totems? I think I keep getting immune everytime I do it?? Reason why they do it?? So we paladin can’t totem stomp shaman?? Do this have to do with the Hand of Reckoning?
June 9th, 2009 - 4:21 pm
the reason why we are getting these buttsecks surprises is very very simple.
Think of it carefully now. What could it possibly be?
Retardation. Ghostcrawler and Co’s behaviour reminds me of the Anal-charge-spammers in trade chat. Retardation.
Case closed
June 9th, 2009 - 4:34 pm
Theseus;
Drak’thul is where I am from. I transferred to Bonechewer to join
Do you play horde or alliance?
June 9th, 2009 - 5:22 pm
Why do they cater to the total noob crowd?
Opponents with EQUAL gear to my ret are a challenge. A mage is a challenge. A lock is a challenge. A priest or druid near unkillable.
Helping folks out with minimal resilience, time played or experience with the game makes no sense at all.
It’s relatively tough work getting a highly ranked arena ret pally. Look at the stats, there’s plenty more dks rogues and warriors in the top ranks of arena.
B’ah. Where are the druid nerfs???? The whole thing is ridiculous.
June 9th, 2009 - 5:26 pm
Alliance, i transferred from Bonechewer to Drak’thul in the last round of free transfers
June 9th, 2009 - 7:31 pm
ret was op when it first came out in wotlk, we needed a better combat systam and some nerfs. I kept my mouth shut and just had faith in blizz, then the wrong nerfs started coming, AW down 10% I hardly use wings after that, CS refreshes judges, still would of prefered something over nothing. Hoj down 10 sec and that is our only stun and we have to spec into it in pvp to be worth something and i cant count how many times my hoj was like 5 sec from CD and the healer finished casting, that nerf really hurt. Then came the wonderful exorcism nerf in pvp, that was the faster hotfix i have ever seen. Made me wonder if blizz even tested it and just went off faith that it would just be a quick fix. Then nerfs its on metamorphosis and I made 4 posts about that and never got 1 reply from blue over there reason, but other classes can still use there similar abilities and the demon pets as well!!
Then Vindication nerf, now alot of pallies were screaming for a MS and I seen vindication as our MS with the 20% health reduction, i thought if you were going to nerf it make it 15% or even 10%, but still after all these replies you persist in feeding us garbage and poor excuses to our balancing when you haven’t even started on working rets issuses and will ignore it till next content. I have lost all faith in the development team as well as respec. 3 years of playing and still you have dissappointed me.
June 9th, 2009 - 10:20 pm
Just an FYI, but as of today Hammer of Justice (and Maim and Bash) were hotfixed nerfed to no longer interrupt spellcasting. My thread about it along with GC’s response is here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17730203113&sid=1
-Azuriel
June 9th, 2009 - 11:40 pm
Have to confess I’m not sure vindication is entirely worthless yet. Everyone has stats that are much higher now, so a bigger chunk gets pulled out with vindication. Still Ghostcrawler’s explanation for nerfing feels lame. I for one would like a nice effect tagged onto it, but that’s beside the point. The bottom line is we do hit too hard too fast right now, and GC is just trying to shave the edges off without actually touching our damage. It’s lame, but vindication was the logical way to cut our burst without actually touching our damage.
-Bronzeshadow
June 10th, 2009 - 1:53 am
“but vindication was the logical way to cut our burst without actually touching our damage. ”
Okay. so you get this. HE WAS NERFING US AGAINST BAD PLAYERS. HE SAID IT HAS NO EFFECT AGAINST SKILLED PLAYERS. DID YOU EVEN READ HIS POST. WE ARE ‘OP’ VS NOOBS. WHAT THE FUCK?!!!!!
June 10th, 2009 - 5:30 am
Oh Blizzard who art thou in Heaven
Hallowed be thy nerfs
Thy nerfbat be come
Thy nerfs be done
On PTRs as well as Live
Give us today our daily LOLs
Forgive us our ROFLMAOs
As we forgive your developers
And lead us not into buffs
For they will surely be nerfed
Amen
June 10th, 2009 - 5:30 am
Now that the randomness has been spouted. When’s the promised combat system coming out? >.>
June 10th, 2009 - 10:53 am
“Okay. so you get this. HE WAS NERFING US AGAINST BAD PLAYERS. HE SAID IT HAS NO EFFECT AGAINST SKILLED PLAYERS. DID YOU EVEN READ HIS POST. WE ARE ‘OP’ VS NOOBS. WHAT THE FUCK?!!!!!”
His explanation was lame, but the “problem” with rets right now is overburst and if that’s going to get nerfed then vindication is the logical, and most gentle, way of doing that.
June 10th, 2009 - 1:27 pm
Yes, I would like to overburst healers. Do that happen? NO! Would the healers stop over healing? NO!
I just got a friend into playing WoW not long ago. He is a Hunter. He keeps telling me he have trouble with ret paladin and rouge, so I go BG with him. Can’t blame him, he’s a noob, Hunter that don’t use FD, Disengage, and traps = one dead Hunter. Then I have to yell at him over the phone to remind him to use all his skills during BG, now he said he only have 1 to 2 out of 10 ret paladin he have problems with, usually when all his CD is used up.
So, I don’t think its the burst problem. Like I said, lock can charm me and burst me standing there for 10k, so wtf? If you only have 14k hp and 0 PvP gear you should get your ass kicked like that.
I think my bro is right. Blizzard becomes greedy. Instead of making this game interesting and “fair.” Blizzard only try to appeal the game to make money now. More noobs happy = more money.
June 10th, 2009 - 4:59 pm
People, even Blizz themselves have stated that the good players won’t complain about this nerf coz it has no affect on them. If you are QQing about this, it’s obviously you’re not in that category.
June 10th, 2009 - 5:40 pm
i guess slayton is a terrible player then. I guess im a terrible player…ohh wait my arena teams are 2k….hmmm i dont think so.
June 10th, 2009 - 7:19 pm
It never ceases to amaze me how when this class receives a nerf, no matter how retarded or unwarranted the nerf was, no matter how backward and asinine the logic used to come up with the nerf was, there is ALWAYS more than a few paladins who will WITHOUT FAIL defend blizzard in some, sideways, malformed way. And one I have seen a lot of times is the old “only noobs will complain about this nerf”.
For god’s fucking sake, this nerf was based on low end PvP and MATH THAT IS WRONG. How can anyone hop out of their little woodpile and proclaim that only sucky people find this nerf, to steal a line, pants on head retarded? If damage is the problem (it’s not), then nerf the fucking damage, and compensate in others areas like CONTROL. Don’t nerf secondary effects, don’t nerf the only ability available to fight against kiting, don’t nerf EYE FOR A FUCKING EYE.
For the sake of your own man and womanhoods, get some sand and stand up when this shit happens, and balk on it. Post like a rogue whining about perception on the forums and fill their pages with your ire. Don’t mumble and posture about how you can still beat two thousand warlocks and frost mages at the same time, or how it won’t have much effect on PvP…IT’S STILL AN UNWARRANTED NERF TO A CLASS THAT HAS SUFFERED WAY TOO MUCH.
June 11th, 2009 - 2:08 am
“It never ceases to amaze me how when this class receives a nerf, no matter how retarded or unwarranted the nerf was, no matter how backward and asinine the logic used to come up with the nerf was, there is ALWAYS more than a few paladins who will WITHOUT FAIL defend blizzard in some, sideways, malformed way. And one I have seen a lot of times is the old “only noobs will complain about this nerf”.
For god’s fucking sake, this nerf was based on low end PvP and MATH THAT IS WRONG. How can anyone hop out of their little woodpile and proclaim that only sucky people find this nerf, to steal a line, pants on head retarded? If damage is the problem (it’s not), then nerf the fucking damage, and compensate in others areas like CONTROL. Don’t nerf secondary effects, don’t nerf the only ability available to fight against kiting, don’t nerf EYE FOR A FUCKING EYE.
For the sake of your own man and womanhoods, get some sand and stand up when this shit happens, and balk on it. Post like a rogue whining about perception on the forums and fill their pages with your ire. Don’t mumble and posture about how you can still beat two thousand warlocks and frost mages at the same time, or how it won’t have much effect on PvP…IT’S STILL AN UNWARRANTED NERF TO A CLASS THAT HAS SUFFERED WAY TOO MUCH.”
Mother fucking zactly. stop being such pussies and grow balls guys like this guy and slayton and tons of other paladins have. If you applaud or defend blizzard in any way after this, i am fully convinced you are either partially or completely retarded. Probably both.
June 11th, 2009 - 8:54 am
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/17729924327-fan-of-knives-spec-is-ruining-5v5.html
GC commenting on people wondering if rogues’ Fan of Knives proccing poisons or at least certain poisons will be nerfed: “So, last I looked today, rogues were represented in really low numbers in 5s among high rated teams (particularly considering they are over represented in 2s and 3s). So “Mortal FoK” doesn’t seem to be winning them too many matches, at least not yet, though it could be one of those things that is annoying even if not overpowered.”
dot dot dot
June 11th, 2009 - 10:50 am
People gripe about the huge front load damage without setup. People gripe about paladin’s being able to wear plate, bubble and heal; seeing it as a cheat, a built in unfairness. This class is universally hated because of it’s inherent design; and it is this faulty design that makes it impossible for Blizzard to balance it properly. It appears that the design team has no clear direction when it comes to paladins, and thus we endure repeated nerfs and changes to the play styles, forcing us to relearn, re gear and re gem our characters, at least once a month, on average. This is extremely frustrating to us and is a cause of great anger, as seen here. There is a REASON why the paladin class feels persecuted and singled out.
These latest nerfs seem to be intended to make it more difficult for the paladin to execute his huge front loaded burst. If we can’t get to our target nor keep our target in melee range, we can’t burst them down. The side effect of this is that ranged classes can easily kite us to death, but I think that is the intention. This is how they chose to deal with our “overpowered ness.” by reducing offensive utility instead of dealing with the problem directly; the front loaded burst without set up, but what else does a paladin have to fight back if everything else keeps getting weakened? This too, shows that they just don’t know what to do with paladins as a class and it is even worse with the ret spec.
The thing that bothers me the most is that the game is being “dumbed” down for the masses, people who are less experienced and or skilled to learn the game’s mechanics and rules sets to play with skill. THIS is what bothers me the most! This is their game world, they created it and they should set it’s rule set and skill level, and all who enter it should be required to meet it standards, not have it cater to them, as it is now with the whiners winning and influencing class design. This is very troublesome to me.
This ain’t over yet; since the whiners know that their tactics actually work, this nerfing and hot fixing paladins will continue until they are reduced to ” LOLret” status once again, and that when Paladin themselves gripe, they will be told to shut up, L2P and or, re roll. Sadly, that will be their only choice, because paladin griping is ignored by the developers.
June 11th, 2009 - 2:13 pm
A) They are working for Blizzard, who is working in custome-relations. They are trying to give us a sense of false hope and keep us as a customers, so that we will keep paying Blizzard to play WoW.
B) They are the mages, hunters, rouges, and other class that miss the old days telling stories of how they solo Ret Paladins.
BM Hunter: Dude, today I solo this one quest boss. It was pretty Epic.
FMage: Yea, killing a Ret Paladins are way easier than that boss.
Rouge: Ret Paladins, its always fun to keep sapping them and watch them panic. I always lmao off when they bubble. Its like you know I can always Cloak of Shadow and Vanish. LOL.
FMage: hahahaha! I think its more funny when I purposely wait for them to catch up to me to let them think they got me and then just ice block and wait for all my CD to come back and own their ass. LOL.
BM Hunter: LOL that’s awesome.
FMage: hahahaa
Rouge: rofl
You know this is true and you hear it from your guild. I know I do.
Yeah, its ok to give rouge sap and blind that last for a whole freaken min because they don’t have any burst dmg. And what Ret Paladin get from their talent? A shitty version of sap called Repentance which “suppose” to be one of Ret Paladin’s signature move.
June 11th, 2009 - 2:22 pm
elrom reminds me that’s the American way to do things. Think of the American Education system. Can’t pass the class? No problem. We’ll just “‘dumbed’ it down for the masses.” orz
June 11th, 2009 - 9:15 pm
Elrom, there IS a fourth option.
Quit.
When Blizzard’s bullshit gets too thick, there is always the ‘fuck those guys’ button, and it works very well indeed. You can do like I do, and watch how the game is changing from a distance, without having to give those hamster molesting twats another penny. You always have the option to restart your account if Blizzard ever stops snorting powdered goldfish feces off the bellies of Thai Lady-boys, and actually, you know, makes the game good again.
The first reaction to our class being nerfed should NOT be to change classes, or re-spec. The majority of us are not FotM queerbait, we were paladins at the start, paladins in the middle, and paladins till the end, and we should NOT change classes and continue to give Blizzard money when they are fucking up OUR chosen class. You play into Blizzard’s hands, and the TERRORISTS WIN.
And I STILL say that ret’s damage is not a problem. You are not auto-winning fights against ANYTHING in equal gear, not like mages, DKs, and Warlocks have done in the past…for LONG periods of time…
June 12th, 2009 - 1:03 am
Well, with the nerf making this talent useless wheres everyone going to put there 2 points? cant decide maybe ill dump them into the alrdy nerfed eye for an eye
June 12th, 2009 - 12:37 pm
B) They are the mages, hunters, rouges, and other class that miss the old days telling stories of how they solo Ret Paladins.
BM Hunter: Dude, today I solo this one quest boss. It was pretty Epic.
FMage: Yea, killing a Ret Paladins are way easier than that boss.
Rouge: Ret Paladins, its always fun to keep sapping them and watch them panic. I always lmao off when they bubble. Its like you know I can always Cloak of Shadow and Vanish. LOL.
:…FMage: hahahaha! I think its more funny when I purposely wait for them to catch up to me to let them think they got me and then just ice block and wait for all my CD to come back and own their ass. LOL.
BM Hunter: LOL that’s awesome.
FMage: hahahaa
Rouge: rofl
You know this is true and you hear it from your guild. I know I do…”
This reminds me of a very cruel comment I saw in someone’s sig: “Bad talents must exist to let the good ones look attractive. Same reason why we don’t send ugly, dumb or fat people to slaughter.”
This is the role or ret paladins, the spec everyone love to hate on, even the developers encourage this scorn and hatred with in game jokes and their own comments on the forums. Remember the Zullgarrub doll with the flavor text, “this resembles an adolescent girl.” Remember the Blizzcon toy of a paladin in a bubble? You can even go to the paladin forums with the joke thread, “You know you are a paladin when..” where a blue poster made the comment.”…you can bubble hearth.” I’m sure there are many more.
In any competitor social situation, there has to be a group or entity that is the odd one out, the one everyone else picks on to make themselves look and/ or feel better, more powerful, ext. Ret is the fat, nerdy, slow kid every one laughed at or picked on in school. And how dare they even try to improve their social status. Just like with ret, it has become viable and the bullies get angry and do everything they can to push then back into their hole, “their place,” thus all the whining and mud slinging.
Since ret is so badly hated, the spec and those that play it can be viewed as collateral damage when balancing the game for the masses. This game is supposed to reward skill, but it seem apparent that this does not apply across the board, since ret is being crippled so less experienced and or skill players can bear one. As I said, rets are the punching bags of WoW. We are here so others can have fun at our expense, either by making us ineffective in pvp or being of little use in PVE. Either way, we are the laughing stock or wow.
PS. because of the social nature of the game, I think a lot the this is deliberate. I think the devs are very well aware of how human psychology and sociology works and they use this knowledge in deciding how to design the game.
June 12th, 2009 - 4:53 pm
WHY they keep blame things on Ret Paladin? No doubt that’s because we’re a very aggressive class. We all know well that if we are too soft on chasing our prey, you will be ending up on the dinner table instead. People that fail to counter our moves automatically said this is bull shit. Ret Paladin have too much burst. I feel that sometimes, but if anyone spend their time on armory, you will know he/she just have better gears than you. Or they are lucky having a very devoting healing on his/her side.
WHY keep picking on us?
WHY no one complain mages that seems to be able to put 3-4 movements debuffs on a hit of a button?
WHY no one complain hunters that can spam exploding shot with no CD?
WHY no one complain lock that seems to be able to take on 2 person at the same time with their pet charming one player while fear another?
WHY no one complain to why rouge that seems to be able to stealth forever are able to cc people forever?
WHY no one complain about the broken system of diminishing return for cc?
Ret Pallys are lambs. Lambs that are to sacrifice to show the public that Blizzard DO INDEED LISTEN!
Blizzard: We DO read and listen to everyone and we feel that ret pally are doing TOOO much damage. Here are some nerf on them.
-Next Day-
Blizzard: Ooops, yeah it seems ret pally’s dps are TOO LOW. We are currently thinking a way to bring their dmg up.
t(-.-t) you Blizzard
June 13th, 2009 - 3:32 am
Asuka
ret is scapegoated cuz the bubble is seen as a cheat, and when 3.0 hit, the bubble and wings were connected together, so people would pop bubble and wings and kill people thought it-full throttle out-all the while immune to incoming dmage. Now this was imedaitly fixed, but the stigma of overpowered, easymode, facerolling win class still stick to us. this hatred has grown to great lengths and is universal.
All this hate and anger is misdirected at paladins, it should be directed at the paladin creator, they made them this way in first place. But peole play paladins and it is those peole that get all the hatred and hostility. Just like bully, the popular kids will comtinue to get us nerfed so we can no longer fight back and the principle will let then cuz the parent of bullies donate to his school. We few are sacrificed so the many can benifit.
ps,
sorry if typing is bad, under heavy meds.
June 16th, 2009 - 7:02 am
Next nerf: Seal of Blood.
No doubt, watch for it.
June 29th, 2009 - 12:37 pm
I already knew something like this is gonna happen. One of the reasons I quit wow almost 3 years ago was due to blizzard never giving a damn about the Ret tree. I was stuck as a healbot for raids. I didn’t want to tank. Ret was left as a joke during early to middle TBC. I got sick of the crap paladins were fed. I gave up and quit. Decided that at this time, blizzard isn’t worth my money.
Very late TBC to the beginning of WOTLK, Blizzard buffed up Rets and they were finally pvp and raid viable. I figured, what the heck, give it a shot and see how Rets have changed. I heard so much RET OP OMG NERF! Next thing I knew, Rets got nerfed again and again.
I complained about it and offered suggestions in the forums of this site and some players called me a whiny ass and should leave the game (no names mentioned because you all know who you are) and even told me LEARN TO PLAY NOOB. “Blizzard knows what they’re doing so stop crying about nerfs noob and go back to the official blizzard forums. We don’t need you here. It’s always just the bad players complaining.” Um ok… so forums aren’t made for people to express concerns and opinions about the game now? Especially when such things are expressed with logical statements to back them up, instead of just noob comments like OMG RETS SUCK NOW FUCK YOU BLIZZARD! If you don’t want to hear different opinions, then don’t visit any forums.
With this vindication nerf and the previous eye nerf, now I know I was right about Blizzard. They cater to the whiny asses of noobs who don’t know much about pvp and cry OP because they got owned by someone due to them lacking knowledge in their own class spec. So much for blind faith in blizzard eh fellow rets?
A fellow ret, who was exceptionally good in pvp, once said to me (as a joke) “hey if blizzard keeps nerfing ret pallies at a rate like this, I wouldn’t be surprised if one day, they’re down to nothing but their auto attack and bubble.” It’s comical and while I doubt that will happen, with the nerfs and upcoming changes to ret paladins, along with the economy issues (yes I can relate to Slayton on that), I’m really considering leaving WoW again. Blizzard at this time again, does not deserve my money in my opinion. I don’t want to be “forced” to change spec or class because of pointless nerfs to a class that I chose to play as from the beginning. To make matters worse, now we know that they do nerf us due to the lower end players crying. Ghostcrawler stupidly let that slip out himself.
December 28th, 2009 - 9:52 pm
Hey did this remind anyone else of their good old days with runescape? thanks 4 the great artcle, was so good! Man them were the days.. <3