I’ll concede the following: when 3.2 first hit the PTRs, I was a bit disenchanted with the direction they had taken. Taking a deep breath, I copied my character over to get a personal taste. Four days of rampant impatience later my character arrived and I was able to gather my initial impressions. I suppose the best way to put it would be that at first I was like:
but after the SoV nerf I was like:
After more than four years of retail, Blizzard seems to still be confused as to the necessary direction for Retribution. Certainly there are seeming glimmers of brilliance as part of 3.2 such as the reintroduction of Exorcism to PvP and Art of War’s expansion to provide a reasonable “choice” in the heat of the moment. Even still, they have severely overlooked some of the more crushing aspects of the Retribution Paladin such as a wasted 11th talent point for a Seal that falls well short of current day options and even shorter still of the future’s proposed alternatives. What was their resolution to this dilemma? Turn Seal of Command into Seal of Blood with no recoil but laughable Judgment damage. Nice work, blue. Truly, nice work.
So what can be done about all this?
To properly answer the above question, we need to understand how we got in this mess to begin with. The concept is very simple: we have no short cooldown interrupt nor do we have a healing debuff and as a result, to make us viable as a DPS spec in PvP, we were given ridiculous burst damage to compensate.
With all that on the table, I would propose the following changes:
- Increase Seal of Command’s Judgment damage a bit (perhaps 15 to 25%)
- Remove Judgment of Justice from the game completely
- Add a moderate snare to Seal of Command when judged (perhaps 20% reduced speed for 5 seconds)
- Reduce the base cooldown of Hammer of Justice to 30 seconds but reduce the duration of Hammer of Justice to 3 seconds
- Adjust the Improved Hammer of Justice talent from the Protection tree to be a 5/10 second CD reduction as opposed to a 10/20 second reduction
- Remove the Hammer of Justice improvements from the deep Protection talent “Judgements of the Just”
- Change Glyph of Hammer of Justice to reintroduce the spell lockout that was previously part of Hammer of Justice
- Reintroduce the ability for all melee-based attacks to both stack Seal of Vengeance/Corruption and proc the 33% weapon damage at 5 stacks
- Add a debuff to Seal of Vengeance/Corruption such that when it is active it makes its use in PvP highly undesirable. One that comes to mind is a substantial armor reduction while the Seal is active. Another that comes to mind is causing the Paladin to take 10% increased damage from all sources while the Seal is active.
- Finally fix (as we were promised) the issue with Righteous Vengeance breaking Repentance
- Add a secondary effect to Crusader Strike causing it to refresh the duration of the Paladin’s damage over time effects on the target
- A reliable and unique (with respect to other classes) interrupt
- A reliable and unique (with respect to other classes) snare
- The desire to actually use Seal of Command in PvP
- The reluctance to use Seal of Vengeance/Corruption in PvP
- Increased Retribution PvE DPS (as prescribed as necessary by Blizzard themselves)
- A sorely-needed secondary effect for our tasteless 41 point talent
- The ability to actually take Righteous Vengeance for PvP as a sustained DPS improvement
- PTR DPS seems to be roughly the same if not slightly improved from Live
July 30th, 2009 - 7:45 am
Well, a 5-10% improvement on Live DPS is actually quite significant, but the argument will continue to rage on over whether it is ‘enough’ when measured against an imaginary yardstick of limited value. Frankly, the level of DPS increase in this sort of scenario is smoke and mirror’s masking new issues of significance:
1) Heavy reduction in AoE damage. SoV will for all intents and purposes not Proc on Divine Storm, a major part of Ret AoE. Even in the best case scenario 3.2 SoC is 75% the damage of 3.1 SoB (36% vs 48%), not to mention that the mana cost of seal switching is extremely prohibitive. Burst AoE without meaningful changes to rotation was one of the big bonus’s of taking a Ret to encounters will such adds.
2) Damage ramp-up time of 11+ seconds. Most fights are no longer Patchwerk or Thaddius P2 style T&S, instead requiring significant target switching and/or ‘time-off-target’ (gravity lapse etc). This change may turn out to be a significant DPS nerf on Tier 8 and 9 content when compared to 3.1.
3) Ret utility has been nerfed, in exchange for the new Vindication and 5/5 SotP. Significantly lower JoLight procs, Divine Sacrifice has been ‘fixed’ (after being bugged for the whole of 3.1), no more Divine Guardian and far fewer free GCD’s to throw out utility spells without impacting DPS.
The average Ret Paladin progressed beyond Naxx-25 has to do more work to accomplish significantly less, and may not even see a genuine increase in DPS under real conditions. I think it’s pretty ballsy for Blizzard to claim that 3.2 is an improvement in any meaningful metric for this spec.
July 30th, 2009 - 7:47 am
I’m sorry, but, I need to quote EJ here.
Target dummy DPS tests are pointless and inaccurate. They are only good for practicing rotations and checking for procs.
I think you are missing the whole problem with the new system post nerf. On any fight with target switching &/or timed burned phases, Ret DPS is (even after ptr update last night) Terrible. Ramp up time is at least 12 secs of auto attacks stacking the dot.
Yes we are great at tank & spank patchwerk type fights…. those only account for a small percentage of fights in Ulduar& 3.2….
July 30th, 2009 - 7:54 am
I would totally expect your ptr dps against the target dummy to be higher but as has been pointed out numerous times the problem is going to come when we are switching targets or are off target long enough for the stacks to drop off. I can’ think of many fights currently in Ulduar where you’re going to be able to stand still long enough to see the damage increase. By all accounts this new ramp up time is a MAJOR nerf on fights that require any real mobility. Frankly I now wish they had just left us the hell alone in this patch. If this goes live and is as bad as some theory crafters think it may be it’s going to cost some of us our raid spots.
July 30th, 2009 - 8:01 am
All in all this will always come off as disheartening. My only significant gripe is what tanking paladins will be doing. I don’t want to believe Blizzard’s development team killed two specs in one go.
July 30th, 2009 - 8:06 am
Suicidal Zebra
I agree that 5 to 10% is a significant increase in DPS and I second your sentiment that AoE damage will be taking a nerf.
Jeremy
Scientifically-speaking, any experiment must be both controlled and consistent across all test cases for it to be considered valid. The test cases I’ve presented are indeed controlled (Average DPS done to a ?? target over a closed timeframe) and consistent (same gear, same buffs, same duration, same rotation, same target, etc). The question was simply whether or not, all things consistent, Ret would see an increase in single-target DPS. This certainly does not account for many situations such as the aforementioned boss fights where being stationary and on the same target indefinitely are not plausible. Let there be no doubts that much work is still needed by Blizzard to place Retribution where it belongs
July 30th, 2009 - 8:08 am
Typhron
I believe Blizzard’s intent, from a PvE perspective, is for Seal of Righteousness to act as the tanking seal while Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is to act as the DPS seal.
July 30th, 2009 - 8:21 am
LOLZ @ that beer box armor set!
Natural ICE set of Audacity
4 set bonus: Decreases your chance to get laid by 10%
July 30th, 2009 - 8:26 am
Artificial limits to keep SoV out of PvP won’t work. They tried this with seal of blood in 3.0.x and we still used it in PvP. Stop being as clueless as Blizzard.
If you want to fix damage in PvE and PvP, fix cooldown clashing. If all our abilities don’t sit there through 2 or 3 global cooldowns because everything came off cooldown at the same time, we’d get more DPS out of those abilities. Tight rotations are near impossible to maintain in PvP over a long period of time. As a result, PvP damage will be lower, but we’ll be using the same abilities. Right now, we use FCFS in both PvP and PvE. No wonder our damage is tied together and a nerf in PvP nerfs PvE. And all this requires is tweaking numbers, not writing any new code.
To go further, tie utility to existing abilities that will make a PvP ret paladin want to use in an order different than a PvE sequence. For example, if the PvE rotation was judge -> CS, then create a libram where CS increases the damage of judgement so that we’ll want to use CS -> judge for burst.
And don’t be like a typical WoW forum kiddie suggesting that we be given every utility ability warriors have.
P.S. You need to use different priorities for live and PTR because of how each seal works and because of the CS cooldown change. On live, CS > Judge. On the PTR, Judge > CS. This skewed your results.
July 30th, 2009 - 8:35 am
Exedore
You would use Seal of Vengeance/Corruption in PvP if having it active caused you to take 10% more damage ore reduced your armor by half? I know I wouldn’t. Secondly, I was not suggesting that we be given every utility ability Warriors have. A snare and a reliable interrupt are common to almost every class in the game:
- Warrior: Hamstring and Pummel
- Rogue: Crippling Poison and Kick
- Mage: Frost effects and Counterspell
- Death Knight: Chains of Ice and Mind Freeze
- Hunter: Concussive Shot or Wing Clip and any number of utility abilities
There are far more than these but I was simply trying to tie some much-needed utility into a very bland Seal.
As far as using different rotations on the PTR and Live, were I to have done this then the experiment would not have been controlled. If you would like, I would be happy to put another post up comparing differing DPS rotation on the PTR in search of that which yields the best results.
July 30th, 2009 - 8:44 am
Couldn’t agree more with your changes. One problem though. Blizzard will never let it happen! They like us being the underdog. The only reason why they gave us so many positive changes in the beginning of wotlk is because they don’t want us to lose interest in the game. What is happening after every patch up until now – steady over-time nerfs + some insignificant improvements, most of which, didn’t even survive. If they don’t start replacing our burst with something really helpful in the near future we are facing “a slightly better TBC”.
July 30th, 2009 - 8:49 am
If they don’t want us to use SoV in the Arena, instead balancing us around SoC, they shouldn’t tip-toe around the issue.
“SoV has no effect against player-controlled units”.
There, fixed. It’s already been tacitly admitted that many of the 3.2 changes are a band-aid with regards to nerfing Ret burst before ‘implementing positive changes some time in the future *yawn*’ so why not perform targeted changes things so that Ret PvE isn’t boned at the same time?
Perhaps, when everyone and their dog chooses to use SoR for PvP Blizzard will finally get it through their thick skull that SoC is not in any way fit for purpose. No, wait, they’ll probably just nerf SoR.
July 30th, 2009 - 8:51 am
Your SoV change suggestions would kill its ability to be used by prot paladins in PvE. That would not be welcomed with open arms by the tankadin community.
July 30th, 2009 - 9:01 am
Exedore
Artificial limits to keep SoV out of PvP won’t work. They tried this with seal of blood in 3.0.x and we still used it in PvP. Stop being as clueless as Blizzard.
Ok, you get 50% dmg increase when fighting another player when SoV is active, or why 50… if it’s that good you’ll get a 100% dmg increase. <- Just a crude example. That’s actually one of the best ideas. Let them rework some abilities, which they wish only to be used in PvP and PvE to have some ridiculous conditions and that way they can separate PvP and PvE easily. To tell you the truth i am tired of their system:
- Hey, paladins have 20% lower dps that we want in PvE. (after dmg is improved).
- Hey , paladins are way too bursty in PvP. (after dmg is nerfed)
-//- to infinity
Separate the god damn abilities – make some for and only for PvP and for PvE. They did it for exorcism so what’s the problem ?
July 30th, 2009 - 9:02 am
Josh
I agree the change would be bad for Tankadins but as stated I do believe Blizzard intended SoR to be the Paladin tanking Seal.
July 30th, 2009 - 9:02 am
* Remove the Hammer of Justice improvements from the deep Protection talent “Judgements of the Just”
* Add a debuff to Seal of Vengeance/Corruption such that when it is active it makes its use in PvP highly undesirable. One that comes to mind is a substantial armor reduction while the Seal is active. Another that comes to mind is causing the Paladin to take 10% increased damage from all sources while the Seal is active.
STOP F#$%$#$% TANKS. Sorry, there is no polite way to say that. SoV is THE tank seal. SoR does not compete in live or PTR. And your change to JoJ = cutting the tank’s spell interrupt ability = more raid damge.
* Add a moderate snare to Seal of Command when judged (perhaps 20% reduced speed for 5 seconds)
A seal that boosts damage AND snares = overpowered
* Reintroduce the ability for all melee-based attacks to both stack Seal of Vengeance/Corruption and proc the 33% weapon damage at 5 stacks
They have already said they will consider adding more triggers if DPS is low. Crusader strike would probably be the 1st choice.
* Increase Seal of Command’s Judgment damage a bit (perhaps 15 to 25%)
They have already increased its damage by changing it to proc on every melee hit. The intention is that it is the seal to be used when you will be switching target often. It does more dmg per hit than SoV w/5 stack but it judges for less. If they boost the judgment then this would be the tanking seal.
As to the whole target switching ramp “problem”. On trash just use SoC, most things will dies long before you get a 5 stack up. On Adds, if you are only on adds, use SoC. If you are switching then you will hae to chose SoC or SoV.
The comparison to druids/rogues is poor here is why: If a druid/rogue switches target with a 4 stack up those combo points are lost. If a pally switches target and comes back within 15s he keeps the stack.
Common example I keep seeing:
ret on add, add goes for healer, ret use hand of reckoning, whacks add2, then tabs between add1 and add2.
rogue on add, add goes for healer, rogue attacks add2, rogue loses all points on add1 so just focuses on add2.
Oh, and when using Avenging Wrath with SoV, Pop it before the 1st SoV dot is applied. The bonus damage will be added to that dot and all subsequent dots and will last as long as the stack does. If you pop it on dot 3 none of them will be boosted
July 30th, 2009 - 9:03 am
Some of you people make no sense to me.
This man comes in with clear, controlled experimental testing for a percentage difference result in dps from live to the ptr and you bash him. All valid experimentation data is done under controlled, uniform conditions and standards. So despite the fact that due to the changes it may not be 100% realistic (I.E. the change in priority, requiring target changes.) it is consistent. Stop sleeping through your science class.
He comes in and makes strong, positive suggestions to make the spec better, and while offering no rebuttal other than “being a forum kiddie suggesting warrior abilities” you bash him. If you don’t like what he has to offer on the table, throw out what you suggest.
Personally I appreciate the time he took in not only testing and recording this data but relaying it to the community. Keep up the good work =)
Also, beer box armor for the lulz.
July 30th, 2009 - 9:12 am
“I agree the change would be bad for Tankadins but as stated I do believe Blizzard intended SoR to be the Paladin tanking Seal.”
SoV +GoV threat > Sor +GoSr + 5/5 Seals of the Pure threat
They would have to boost SoR a lot for it to be the tanking seal
To quote form the guide on EJ:
“Seal of Vengeance/Corruption (SoV): This is generally considered the premier tanking seal, since a full stack deals more damage than SoR, and it can be kept active on multiple targets at the same time, especially with HotR.
The DoT will continue to tick for 15 seconds after the last time it was refreshed (melee or HotR hit). This can be very useful for mobs that have a threat-wiping ability. It also means that you don’t lose any substantial dps/threat from the seal when your melee attacks are avoided. On the downside, the DoT nature of the damage means that Reckoning will have very little effect on SoV damage. (However, even if you do have Reckoning, SoV is still better for threat than SoR.)
The Glyph of Seal of Vengeance adds 10 expertise when SoV is active (-2.5% chance to be dodged or parried, so this means your chance to hit goes up 5%). This applies to melee attacks and to HotR (parries of HotR will show up as “deflected” but it’s the same thing). Although not hitting doesn’t cost you very much in threat when you’re using SoV, getting parried still has the undesirable effect of speeding up your target’s next autoattack.
Seal of Righteousness (SoR): In most situations this seal is less effective than SoV, but it can be useful for situations with fast-dying mobs that don’t give you time to build a full SoV stack. Effectively, SoR sacrifices steady threat for “up-front” threat; you may prefer to start a fight with SoR to help establish threat quickly and then switch to SoV for the long haul.
The Glyph of Seal of Righteousness increases the damage done by the seal by 10%. While this is a nice effect for times when you’re using SoR, you won’t be using SoR often enough to make this worth using a major glyph slot.”
July 30th, 2009 - 9:22 am
Suicidal Zebra
“Perhaps, when everyone and their dog chooses to use SoR for PvP Blizzard will finally get it through their thick skull that SoC is not in any way fit for purpose. No, wait, they’ll probably just nerf SoR.”
You can alwais gou for SoJ! Wat, ar u ritardet ?!?!? L2p wit ur klas !
July 30th, 2009 - 9:52 am
I’ve actually been meaning to patch up my PTR client to try and attempt a “controlled” boss fight on the PTR by doing a 5 min fight, same gear, proper rotation on each, but with a 15 second all stop at 2:00 and 4:00 to mimic scripted phase changes or forced target swaps like we might see in a real encounter instead of a flat out tank and spank like this tests (and proves as not a big deal like we expected). I’ll toss you guys some numbers later when i get a chance.
July 30th, 2009 - 10:18 am
Tharvolde, I like ret as much as any veteran paladin, and I like most of your suggestions, but your proposed change to Seal of Vengeance/Corruption bothers me. And the way you’re trying to excuse it being okay for it to no longer be usable by prot paladins is very reminiscent of people who suggest things like Divine Shield being removed as a baseline ability and being confined to a very deep holy talent; that is to say, you make suggestions to appease PvPers without thinking of the repercussions to other talent trees, or simply don’t care.
Now, I realize this probably wasn’t your intent, but please do keep that in mind in the future.
In any case… I would accept such a change to the seal if you had also suggested a way for prot paladins to negate the penalties via changes to a deeper prot talent. Perhaps Judgements of the Just would be suitable, considering your changes remove its current functionality with Hammer of Justice.
July 30th, 2009 - 11:08 am
I agree with Suicidal Zebra.
If could use the “SoV has no effect against player-controlled units” logic and let the dots stack with auto attack, cs, ds and judgement.
I don’t understand the developers and the game designers.
Probably no one of them test the paladin class.
July 30th, 2009 - 1:47 pm
“Another that comes to mind is causing the Paladin to take 10% increased damage from all sources while the Seal is active. ”
Why would i want this in pve? They already are moving us away from the recoil of seal of blood, thank god, and you suggest 10% more dmg taken?
“FCFS where Judgement > CS > DS > Exorcism > Consecration”
???
July 30th, 2009 - 1:49 pm
I wanted to point out that my test dps results are the same however. Slightly higher on a single target, but im sure switching will instantly kill all gain. And we will be lower then before.
July 30th, 2009 - 3:31 pm
I enjoyed the PvP changes you conceived, but making SoV unable to hit players is the best change to balance it the way it should be. On my opinion, they should leave the dps with SoC the way it is, change CS damage back to 100% weapon damage in a 5 second CD and totally rework Repentance.
The way to do is to make it work as a spammable CC. Give it a 1.5 cast time, 6 second PvP duration (as Cyclone DR, 6, 3, 1.5, DR), and to break on damage. Also it is a magic debuff so it can be dispelled. Short duration, breakable on damage, resets the swing timer and consumes a lot of mana if just spammed, can get you counterspelled, demanding a wise use of the skill. It could also add a debuff that increased the Exorcism critical strike chance by 100% on the target, to assist us Rets against kiting targets (aka giving situational ranged damage, again requiring good use of the skill).
A change like this would solve all the problems in PvP, without affecting PvE at all. Good CC, normal PvP damage, distance-closer (almost) every time we needed it and hell, add more buttons to deal with the “QQ RETS R FACEROLLZ” shit. Also it would open a spot to us in many more team comps, because the 3.2 changes CLEARLY incites us playing Cleave, and only Cleave 3s.
If Blizzard only read this site…
July 30th, 2009 - 3:35 pm
Oh almost forgot, it would also balance Rets on the lower rating brackets, since a lot of bad players cry about this. LOL rets trying to click a travelcat druid (aka playing without focus) while they backpedal and fall of the BEM arena bridge.
July 30th, 2009 - 4:12 pm
In the very latest build (just deployed) you get credit for the magnitude of the Holy Vengeance debuff on the target, so the ramping up of damage is a whole lot smoother. I’ve stuck the details up on my blog, and to summarise:
1 HV debuff: 6.7% SoV Proc
2: 13.3%
…
5: 33%
Only autoattacks and HotR can apply the HV debuff, as before.
Still a stupid system if you ask me, but marginally less stupid.
July 30th, 2009 - 4:18 pm
Well now, isn’t this thread of replies heated?
Tharvolde
Your suggested changes do seem to be playing with numbers more than thinking about the big picture. Let’s think outside the box.
If there were a few changes, if our seals/judgments were to remain the same, I could suggest…
Make consecrate deal a substantial amount of initial damage(critable). This would be a huge tanking buff as well : P
A personal Bloodlust effect: Upon exorcism crit, you gain fervor, increasing movement and melee attack speed by 20-30% for 6sec. This would be the time to switch to SoV
Crusader Strike: Has specific effects for each seal…
SoV/Corr: CS implies that there are 5 stacks on the target.
SoC: 20% snare
SoWisdumb: CS mana cost reduced by 100%
SoR: Slows your movement speed and emotes u r retardead for using this seal.
SoJ: Nothing because it will always be useless.
Ofc, who knows if this is even close to realistic w/o testing, but I’m just trying to think outside the box.
July 30th, 2009 - 7:23 pm
@ Tharvolde and Duali
No, that is not a good controlled experiment. Keeping the same rotations when the elements of the rotation have changed IS a variable that completely invalidates the test results. If you wanted to eliminate that variable, you would use the optimal DPS rotation for each patch. I’ll simplify it since you don’t seem to understand. Use SoR, since it hasn’t changed. Go up to a target dummy and do nothing but crusader strike it for 5 minutes. Your PTR damage will be higher because you have more seal procs and net CS damage is higher. But wait, you used the same rotation and damage is higher!
@ Tharvolde
Yes, I would use SoV in PvP even if I took 10% extra damage. Extra damage didn’t stop me from using Seal of Blood. It doesn’t stop warriors from using Berserker Stance.
Just because another class has something doesn’t mean paladins need it. You need to look bigger and think of multiple ways to solve a problem and why that problem is a problem. Paladins don’t need a snare. Other classes have snares to negate roots and snares on themselves. We have an anti-snare that evens the playing field in a different way.
I’m amazed though. It only took you 2 days to show that your posts are no better than those at the official forums.
July 30th, 2009 - 7:50 pm
It’s very difficult to reconcile my experience on the PTR with comments on this particular blog.
Maybe if you’re packing all Ulduar gear you’ll see something different, but for my essentially naxx geared ret, I’m seeing average numbers, and the writing is definitely on the wall (in 3.2′s current iteration) for pvp… I can’t really gleen any positives for pvp, especially considering ret’s MASSIVE slide down the arena rankings this season after heavy nerfs. They’re one of the last in 2v2 performance now, and I can fully understand why.
July 30th, 2009 - 8:11 pm
Exedore
I’ll not get into a flame war with you but I’ll instruct you that your understanding of scientific experiment is clearly flawed. The test at hand was to measure Retribution Paladin DPS on a single target on a closed time interval. In order for this to be an accurate test, the same abilities must be used with the same priorities over the same time interval with the same gear equipped on the same target. The lone exception to these pairings is the variable we have changed which forms the basis of our testing – that being a different Seal. Any deviation for a single one of these consistencies essentially invalidates the test. The test you seem to believe I ran was “Find the optimal Ret Paladin single-target DPS cycle on both Live and the PTR and then compare the results against one another. This was, in fact, not what I was testing. All rotations are certainly not equal and I have no doubt that alternate rotations on the PTR would yield a wide range of DPS results.
The example of 10% extra damage while Seal of Vengeance is active, I’ll concede, is a lackluster example. Regardless, the concept I was trying to put on the table is that Blizzard has clearly stated that they will not have a repeat of Exorcism such that an ability is for one side of the game (PvE) and not the other. As a result, it seems obvious that some drawback will be instituted for using Seal of Vengeance that would negatively effect its use in PvP while having a negligible effect in PvE. In its most recent state, in that the damage ramp-up for using Seal of Vengeance has been shortened due to partial SoV procs on one’s way up to 5 stacks, Seal of Vengeance may very well remain the Seal of choice for PvP. This is not part of Blizzard’s vision for 3.2 Retribution and you can expect it will be changed along the lines that I have mentioned in the very near future.
Lastly, your cheap shot about “taking 2 days to show that “my” posts are no better than those at the official Paladin forums is not only an insult to me but also an insult to everyone that visits the official Paladin forums. This site is intended to build community and a knowledge base for all that is Retribution and not to belittle those whom have opinions you may not agree with. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I would politely ask that you direct your energies toward providing constructive criticism and ideas of your own you feel are superior to those you are in disagreement with instead of pouring the gasoline of a self-ignited flame war on the ground nearby. As an example, I would enjoy looking through some of your own test cases you feel are important such as finding an optimal DPS cycle based on the 3.2 changes or the effects of switching targets on regular intervals while using Seal of Vengeance.
July 30th, 2009 - 9:30 pm
To Tharvolde
The only problem with your controlled test comes from your own words. “In order for this to be an accurate test, the same abilities must be used with the same priorities over the same time interval with the same gear equipped on the same target.” The problem is, you’re not using the same abilities. Crusader strike on the PTR is not the same crusader strike on live. Exorcism on the PTR is not the same exorcism as it is on live (granted you won’t be taking any recoil damage to use your AoW procs on Flash of Light so you’d probably still get instants whenever it comes off cooldown). Those differences change your priorities as they affect your GCD clash as it would be on live, which in essence changes the control in your test. The only true test to see whether or not your dps is truly receiving an improvement is to use the maximum dps rotations in both iterations, or remove the skills that have changed out of both. The only issue is that it will not showcase what ret in the near future is truly capable of.
July 30th, 2009 - 10:06 pm
@Tharvolde
“In order for this to be an accurate test, the same abilities must be used with the same priorities over the same time interval with the same gear equipped on the same target”. “Same abilities”. Think about that. CRUSADER STRIKE IS NOT THE SAME! If I told you to go to the store and get beer, you could get it in a 6-pack or a 24-pack. There’s a difference, but it’s ok, it’s still beer! That’s essentially what you’re saying. If you want to see the DPS difference between live and the PTR, you use the best PvE rotation in each environment. After all, that’s what you want to see: the difference in PvE DPS. You aren’t going to use a sub-optimal rotation (knowingly) in PvE.
Read the forums here, or even ask the posters. Everyone agrees that the official forums are terrible and even when good ideas are posted there, they get trolled to death with “lolret” posts. That’s why we visit and post at 3rd party sites.
I’m all for promoting knowledge and intelligent discussion. It angers me when players insist on being wrong and post ideas without forethought. I have done testing on live and PTR and posted it. I have posted ideas on how to fix paladins with reasoning and debated topics like whether we need a snare. You’re in a position of respect and responsibility. I expect more than rattling off the same tired ideas from the official forums that get posted every day and would make us overpowered and continue to elicit cries of “lolret”. You want SoV buffed, but you also want snares and interrupts. SoV damage is too high in PvP for us to get any utility. You can either keep the over-the-top damage and continue to be faesrol isimode or you can go down to a reasonable level of damage and get the utility.
Oh, the PvE rotation for 3.2? That was generally determined about 2 days after the PTR went live. J>DS>CS>Cons>Exo or Exo>Cons depending on glyphs
July 30th, 2009 - 11:33 pm
as to your idea of making HoJ more of an interupt type, i like it. But as most other class interupts Ex. kick mind freeze, i would hope that it would be taken off GCD.
July 31st, 2009 - 1:04 am
I was thinking about this and rather than nerfing an already gutted SoV to make it unattractive in PvP, why not give SoComm a benefit that would generally be useless in high end PvE (if nothing else they always know how to make the bosses immune to it) but is worthwhile in PvP. I’m thinking cliche in having it correspond to the judgment you choose to use, but I’ve always been a fan of that idea because I think it brings a deeper meaning to which one you hit, which is something I always found a fairly shallow choice.
I’m thinking for Light, have a team-wide effect (or possibly 2 lowest teammates, so that its not OP in 5v5 but is a good tool in 2s and 3s) regen similar to what Replentishment is for mana.
For Wisdom, maybe cause the limiter on replentishment being self only to be removed.
Have these be I dunno, 2 ticks over 5 seconds? Its shorter than the judgement cooldown so its not a constant up-time effect which would help prevent it from being OP.
Justice…well I find it hard to get past going loljustice long enough to be serious, but I would say something similar to what Judgments of the Just in the prot tree does. Slow attack speed (not by the % that JotJ does though. maybe 5%?) and casting speed (not sure what kind of number would be good here off hand.) Yes, its similar to mind numbing poison, deal with it. Again, if its problematic for PvE, they can make the bosses immune to the special effects.
That plus what Tharvolde suggested for the HoJ/talent changes, but leaving it on the GCD would give us a viable interrupt, team utility, and a degree of help with healers, and doesn’t affect damage in any way so that those numbers can be tweaked independent of the utility as necessary rather we be under or over (yeah right) represented.
For SoV, I’m of the idea of setting it so that the stacks work like Vengeance and stack on the paladin for target-swapping. Let either CS or Judgment/DS (since they’re both longer cooldowns) also apply the stack. Keep the 10% penalty that Tharvolde mentioned and tack it as a benefit onto one of Prot’s talents that they take as core anyways that removes the penalty. Deep in the tree obviously. Or don’t and put some work into SoR and make them use that, seeing as to how I agree with Tharvolde in that I believe SoR being the tanking seal is the direction in which things will be heading soon enough.
Why keep the penalty? Well for one its no where near as bad as SoB/M’s was since its only going to apply when there’s damage being taken anyways not when you do damage. It’s actually less of an impediment than a warrior using it because we have better healing mechanics (tried and tested, I raided with my roommate who played a full time dps warrior). I don’t mind having it because the idea of taking extra damage always makes me more aware and careful than I otherwise would be. Also if they were to put on a penalty they couldn’t use the lack of one (aka no counterbalance) as an excuse not to give us the DPS we deserve.
I wouldn’t give us a snare, aside from just not feeling right for the class, I just don’t think everyone should have one. I love Freedom and I would instead suggest de-nerfing it and giving it a talented resistance to dispel mechanics somewhere. Maybe in one of the recently gutted talents like Vindiction or Eye for an Eye to make them worthwhile again.
This is just a little quick think up from when I was driving around earlier, I’m sure there are holes in it, but hopefully its a template that even better ideas can be built upon.
July 31st, 2009 - 1:07 am
Edit: to be clear on the SoCom > JoLight thing, I mean not as a return like what it currently does, but as a passive buff like replenishment, and will run concurrent to its present day effects.
July 31st, 2009 - 3:18 am
“Separate the *damn abilities – make some for and only for PvP and for PvE. They did it for exorcism so what’s the problem ?”
TY! I have been preaching this for years now… until they seperate pvp and pve abilities this prblm will continue no matter what!
July 31st, 2009 - 3:35 am
@Exedore
That is a fair argument and I appreciate your thoughts. My main disagreement would be that, were SoV to be properly adjusted such that using it is highly undesirable in PvP, a snare and an interrupt would not – in my opinion – be overpowered.
@Sandaria
I agree this would solve the issue but Blizzard has been very clear about the fact they don’t have any intention or desire to put hard separation’s on abilities. As a result, I strongly believe an adjustment will be made to SoV and/or SoComm to make it unattractive in PvP.
On a side note, some ideas I had posted a while back were as follows:
- Make Judgements stack a debuff to three. The damage done by the Judgement would scale according to the stacks on the target. For example, the first Judgement would hit for less than is on Live at the moment whereas the Judgement that places the third debuff would hit for slightly more than on Live.
- Each Judgement type would have its own debuff: Light, Wisdom and Justice.
- Rework Exorcism to “cleanse” the target. This removes all Judgement debuffs but activates an effect. For Light, a healing debuff could be added or the Paladin could be instantly healed. For Wisdom, the target would be silenced for a maximum of 3 seconds. For Justice, the target would be stuck in place for a maximum of 3 seconds.
- The triggered effects of Exorcism would scale according to the number of debuffs such that at only 1 stack of Wisdom, Exorcising the target would silence them for 1 second.
- If needed, put Exorcism on a longer CD
Obviously tuning applies but I would personally enjoy a system as above. It meets Blizzard’s latest paradigm of “ramping up” while placing a responsibility on the Paladin to make a choice in PvP.
July 31st, 2009 - 7:31 am
Screw utility. Leave our burst alone. Give a us a little better single target pve dps. Done and Done. I like our class the way it was. I started a Ret knowing my pve dps wouldn’t be great and knowing my burst was going to be awesome. They are turning my Ret into something I normally wouldn’t roll and this is a real deal breaker for me…it makes me not want to play my class.
July 31st, 2009 - 7:44 am
I’m not trying to QQ… I guess in a nutshell you could say Ret Paladin is kinda like a religion to me, and Blizzard is trying to take what I love most about it away. I really hope these changes don’t go live…
BTW proposed changes FTW
July 31st, 2009 - 8:00 am
A system of damage based on judgement stacks is almost exactly like combo points. But combo points stack a lot faster, so although they’re penalized for switching, it’s not hard to replace them. A longer duration system would just promote tunnel visioning. That’s something that happens in mid-level arena where our damage was already problematic. Especially if you design it to chain-stun.
Before anyone goes around proposing changes to PvP DPS, you need to understand it. Ret paladins are too good in PvP because our damage never changes. Aside from AW, we put out the same damage from start to finish. Our sustained damage is essentially our burst damage. In order to lower the burst, you end up lowering sustained damage, which makes us pitiful in both PvE and PvP. If you want to increase sustained damage for PvE, you increase our burst too much in PvP.
SoV damage with a 5-stack is far too high for PvP. Trying to get it back into PvP is just dumb. Sure, it has a ramp-up, but after that ramp-up, it stays there. Ideally, we would have a mechanic that could be built up relatively quickly and expend it for higher damage in a very short period. Frost DKs do this with runic power: build up 130 RP and then spam 4 Frost Strikes for burst. After that, they need to build up that 130 RP again, so they’re holding back on some of their damage. Unholy DKs put up diseases and then convert blood runes to death runes (10 sec CD on a rune) so they can use 3 scourge strikes in a row.
July 31st, 2009 - 8:07 am
Honestly, this ‘re-do’ was boned from the start. Blizzard should never have considered moving Rets to SoV/C, as that has been, and should always remain THE tanking seal. As an aside, it’s interesting to note that these changes will further boost a Prot Pallys TPS as once they hit 5 stacks, they get 33% of their 1-H damage (woohoo!).
What Blizzard should have done was move Ret towards Seal of Command. Why? It is a Ret Talent.
This doesn’t take a genius to figure out.
This does not require a Ph.D in Awesome.
This does not require 300 Spartan Warriors standing around looking badass.
It requires a basic grasp of logic and common sense (Blizzard seems lacking in this department)
They should have re-designed Seal of Command from the ground up. One of the many ideas I’ve seen about SoC that I liked was that it would add a debuff to the target, up to 3 stacks
1 stack = 11% weapon damage
2 stack = 22% weapon damage
3 stack = 33% weapon damage
All attacks (CS, DS, Auto) would apply the debuff.
Voila! You now have damage that still must be ramped up, can be reacted too (ala dispell / Cloak of Skill), and spreads out the burst without seriously impacting your PvE DPS, and doesn’t make target switching as painful as their current plans.
I mean let’s compare to say, a Blood DK’s rotation. After they hit you with Icy Touch and Plague Strike, what else do they have to do to ramp up their DPS, other then keep generating Runic Power? We start with full Runic Power, but our attacks all have cooldowns to keep that in check.
I quit WoW a month ago for different reasons, but I am not the least bit surprised by the incompetence displayed by Blizz in their designs for 3.2. (as if having a Raid Instance version of Violet Hold wasn’t pathetic enough).
Trust me, this game is not getting better…it’s getting sloppier by the patch.
July 31st, 2009 - 8:17 am
I don’t know if there is anything that can possibly be proposed that wouldn’t have some form of parallel existing already in the game. It’s like hearing a song you’ve never heard before but somehow parts of it sound familiar. There is only so much that can be truly “unique” before at least partial repetition begins to set in.
The example I gave of stacking Judgements resulting in stepwise increases in Judgement damage can be likened to the way Frost DKs work (as you’ve already noted) – the key difference being that Frost Strike spam comes with no utility attached but exceptional burst while what I’m proposing would come with less burst than Frost Strike spam but utility.
I may have been unclear but I am not proposing that SoV be used in PvP. The Judgement stacks are relative to the Judgements being cast (Light, Wisdom or Justice) and not the active Seal although the amount and type of damage being done by the Judgement certainly would depend upon the active Seal. Additionally, Exorcing the target for the desired effect would consume the Judgement stacks thus resetting your ramp-up.
July 31st, 2009 - 8:56 am
as Blizzard always says, they will wait to balance until people have the teir pieces with set bonuses before they make any changes to push it up more. Unfortunately, it means another 2 months of live prolly before we see it. I think you would assume that most of the citadel will be undead , so add another 1% for that glyph too. But all in all i just want to be competitive with all the other hybrids.
July 31st, 2009 - 9:06 am
I started a debate on the Paladin Class Forum (EU) on Retri Burst.
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?forumId=10018&sid=1&topicId=10222014400&pageNo=1
If you wanna, check it!
July 31st, 2009 - 9:19 am
I’m not sure if anyone posted this, as I am on my way to work and dont have time to look, but. It seems they made some “Undocumented” changes to the latest build. If you spec 5/5 in Seals of the Pure, You will be getting a percentage of bonus damage for each application of SoV. Once 5 stacks is hit you will then recieve the full 33% bonus damage rather then nothing up until 5 stacks. Minor change but still worthwhile.
July 31st, 2009 - 10:24 am
The SoV partial damage is part of the base ability. It doesn’t require the talent.
July 31st, 2009 - 1:22 pm
I agree with some of the earlier posts. Although the targeting dummy is interesting and builds a little insight at the overall data, it doesn’t depict the whole story. Fights will multiple targets were already acknowledged as being substantially lower. Seal switching has been suggested, but as this draws on our already limited source of mana, this is not a long term solution and may not be a solution at all depending on the group make-up. Keep in mind that replenishment was also taking a hit this patch, and I’m not sure how that will translate compared to live mana regen. Second of all, with the haste factor, even the fastest of the two-handers would be round 12-13 second ramp up time each time we are away from the target for 15 seconds. Switching targets such as on Razorscale or XT-002 with the heart phase are all good examples of that and are pretty accessible even to casual raids.
Blizzard will most likely let this go live based on the blue posts show on many forums and other sites, but I strongly think this is a bad idea. Ultimately a new solution needs to be identified. If they are unhappy with how dps is done in pvp, but disappointed in its outcome in pve; then maybe making a distinction between the seals is the best way to go. We have seen this is possible previously with such spells as Exorcism being usable against NPCs only. This won’t be fixed anytime soon as it will take calibration. Something Blizzard is not often great at doing slightly.
July 31st, 2009 - 3:32 pm
@TurkeySpit
Read the patch notes. Your version of SoC is worse that what they are changing it to. Basically SoC will do 36% of weapon damage on EVERY HIT. no stacking, no ramping.
The primary reasons ret pallys are looking at SoV:
JoV > JoC, they reduced the damage on JoC
the SoV procs can crit
SoV = 33% weapon damage(can crit) + dot stacking/maintenance
SoC = 36% weapon damage(can’t crit)
Now a GOOD suggestion would be to let the SoC procs crit. RNG+must be in melee range doesn’t sound too OP for PvP and makes SoC more viable for trash and bosses with a lot of target switches.
July 31st, 2009 - 4:24 pm
I would like to throw this out there since its been on my head for the past few days about it. Why not give seal of command’s judgments the ability to interrupt and go have SoV go back to any melee attack(if anything have at least CS be able to proc it too). here is the catch, give seals some sort of shared cooldown. that way you can’t be switching between them and the interrupt tied to SoC makes it very apealing for pvp.
I really don’t get why Blizz keeps nerfing SoV when instead they should buffing SoC.
August 1st, 2009 - 4:34 am
I’m shelving my paladin. I might take it out to play with the new mechanics but Blizzards misconception of the paladin was flawed from beta…
No, I don’t have an idea of what the class should really be like. If you take the classic paladin archetype from various RPG sources they did TREMENDOUS damage whilst still buffing and supporting the party.
August 1st, 2009 - 7:48 am
To Nathelien:
They keep nerfing SoV because they want to force you to use SoC as is.
They do not want to buff SoC because its damage is at the level they want for PvP.
August 1st, 2009 - 5:06 pm
@Elromm
yeah I figured that’s what they want
what I mean by buffing SoC is not as much as increasing its dmg, but really giving it a bit more utility. The dmg would be OK if it did something else. something worth sacrificing dmg that SoV gives. until they give us that, most people will just look at what deals the most dmg since thats all we have at the moment .
August 2nd, 2009 - 6:40 pm
well i am sorta working on revamping the retribution tree and if i finish it and i can post it here, then all of us can fine-tune it and hopefully we can submit it to Blizzard. So far i have Crusader Strike trainable, SoC trainable, divine storm moved to the 41pt tier and a new 51 pt called Final Judgement, still working on the details for it tho but it is loosely based upon the DK’s Army of the Dead but with angels. Not sure if i should add a pet for us since Paladins, warriors and rogues are the only class that don’t have pets of some sort. Also i am adding an interrupt called Honor thy Vow(name is very changeable) that silences the target for 4 sec and a new aura called Aura of Station(name is changeable) that acts like the shaman’s grounding totem but only 10 or 15 yard radius. Repentence will be changed to be more like cyclone and banish where they cannot be affected by spells or damage. Any thoughts or comments??
August 2nd, 2009 - 6:44 pm
oops should be earthbind totem not grounding totem
August 3rd, 2009 - 8:42 am
i just dont see any benefits to play ret after this patch hits as it stands. thankfully ill still be able to raid ret with my guild. but im turning off my dps meters. i cant bear to see 2nd or 3rd spot drop to 8th or 9th while working harder to maintain.
August 3rd, 2009 - 9:48 am
You do realize if you sporting the Beserking enchant you’d be taking more damage than 10%
Also my dps is a hell lot higher on on the ptr try not to spam consecrate unless your doing aoe mobs because I get a lot more dps trying for single target now than including consecrate in my rotation (On the PTR)
August 3rd, 2009 - 12:49 pm
Well to be honest iv given up on blizz being able to “Fix” paladins with their current way of thinking they dont understand mindset behind most ret players and what they want from the class over blizzards set “role” systems.
Its come to a point where I would rather blizz completely rework the class into an upper mid dps class with situational buffs that proc off certain moves and combos. At least this way we would for once fill a needed nich in the game while still being true to the play style and lore around the class.
Like the idea or hate it in the end were always going to be seen in blizzards eyes as inconsequential bc to them if we really wanted to dps we would roll a pure dps class and likewise with healing. Blizz has never quite gotten that what RETs like about the class is the play style and lore behind it over say being on the top of the dps charts. Thats why so many of us have continued to stick with the class over the ups and downs we have endured over the years.
August 3rd, 2009 - 10:42 pm
SoV has always been the tanking seal. To make it “Undesirable” by causing armor reduction or increased damage taken would be a massive slap in the face to tanking paladins.
The answer to the SoV problem is to make Seal of Command worth the talent point. I’m not sure why people are still talking about SoV in a PVP environment. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if SoComm was worth ANYTHING
IMO it should cause something like the DK desecration talent, covers the ground in holy jizz and snares targets
Thing is, I’ve given up on my paladin. I gave up when someone made a comment “what does a 0/0/0 paladin have”
I never, ever, thought about that before. That’s when I re-rolled dk
August 3rd, 2009 - 10:58 pm
Lol I love this comment
“A seal that boosts damage AND snares = overpowered”
yeah, it’s called desecration bro.
+15% damage, and snares targets. this is what blizzard calls balance.
August 4th, 2009 - 3:25 am
I will no longer be giving blizz my money.
Aion is soon and Im sick of their attitude.
BTW great pics loved em.
August 4th, 2009 - 8:49 am
I dunno guys I read this site and its in such a negative light I wish I could find a ret paladin site that’s more optimistic like some of the feral tank druid sites my girlfriend reads. Feral tanks have no Itemization and there are like no feral tanks anywhere, only feral cats who tank occasionally
Its just all I see is QQ and no support for the class.
Id say I’m indecent gear I’m not in bis but I have my 8.5 4 piece and the world carver and I’m pumping out 4-7k dps depending on the fight in Ulduar. I’m happy with those numbers I’m usually right under our rouges. Maybe I missed the boat because I was prot from 1-70 before going to ret at 71 but I don’t see it as that bad. I’m usually top 5 in dps and top 3-4 in healing meters in Ulduar.
August 4th, 2009 - 8:51 am
@Theseus
Yeah that sounds Awesome, So fricken sweet we would be the most op class ever and they would take away all dps from us.
August 4th, 2009 - 8:52 am
@Theseus
I wish I could edit here because I wanted to add we would become the CC spec where we could only heal and CC and not damage at all.
August 4th, 2009 - 9:13 am
@LOL
>“A seal that boosts damage AND snares = overpowered”
>yeah, it’s called desecration bro.
>+15% damage, and snares targets. this is what blizzard calls balance.
You should read the patch notes as well:
“Desecration: This talent has been reduced to 2 points for 25/50% snare and no longer increases damage done by the death knight. It has also been moved one tier earlier in the tree and its spell effect has been made more transparent.”
So yeah, it IS OP and Blizz is NERFing it on DKs.
August 4th, 2009 - 12:18 pm
@Revons
There will always be pessimists and the proverbial looming clouds amidst a blue sky regardless of where you go. This is a fact of life and one that unfortunately will always remain unchanged. The fact of the matter is that there are many of us, such as myself, that are immensely passionate about the Retribution class and look for the silver lining whenever possible. We are the ones that have played Retribution for what seems as ages now and have stuck with it through thick and through thin.
There are a lot of great features coming to this site in the near future that I think the entire community will appreciate and I’m willing to divulge a bit of information right now as to just one of those:
Megaphone and I are working on a “Featured Retadin” section to the site that will be used to provide an exemplary example of a Retadin who is greatly excelling in a particular game area (PvE or PvP). We will conduct an interview with this Paladin, screenshot their UI, ask pointed questions about their tactics against certain comps (PvP) or DPS-enhancing tricks (PvE), step through the addons they use and much more. This will be a great opportunity not only for the chosen Paladin to be recognized for excellence at what they do but also a phenomenal learning tool for the community to learn from someone who is truly at the top of the proverbial food chain.
More to come!
August 4th, 2009 - 3:24 pm
Love the Paladin of the Month idea.
August 5th, 2009 - 5:41 am
3.2 dropped yesterday…
We did a quick farm run on 25 Naxx…
And, so far, from my personal experience, my PVE dps does not appear to have changed overall.
However, I did note the following changes; My multi target mob dps using SoC has dropped substantially, and my single target boss dps using SoV has slightly improved.
Really, other than slightly changing the way that I have to do things now, it appears nothing has changed…
I have not tried my areana 2v2 team yet, but if what I’ve been hearing holds true, I’ll see a massive nerf there…
So… Where is that pve dps buff we were promised?
August 5th, 2009 - 7:05 am
****ING DAMN.
“Better dps” they said.
NO.
Ret paladin feels like a spectator class now that has a slingshot. GOD DAMN.
August 5th, 2009 - 10:18 am
To be honest, after having played the new battle grounds on my ret pally, I am more than happy about the new changes to the class. I was always a casual pvper (never got much pvp gear, yet I like to think I am experienced in pvp having over 140/75 wins and losses in 80 arena and over 23k HKs). With blizzard implementing a HoT for any paladin with sacred shield, the pvp ret paladin can now truely HEAL in an arena or BG. The instant cast FoL where helpful in the begining but never realy got the job done right. With this HoT ret paladins should see an increase in survival rate. Yes our pvp dps was nerfed a bit with the expulsion of Seal of the Marty, however, with exorcisim in the game again and our ability to heal WAY better I believe paladins will come out on top here.