I was trying to hold off posting until there was some more juicy changes coming from 3.3.5, but there hasn’t been much other than a few Battleground tweaks and “side buffs” to some classes. I’ll definitely be checking every day to see if there is anything new coming out, but at the time of making this post, there isn’t even a single thing happening for us Palotins!
After being relentlessly pestered in Strands of the Ancients by a Paladin in (near) full Retribution gear surviving with upwards of 5 DPS on him, and having a friendly chit chat afterward regarding his spec and success in arena, I’ve decided it’s about time to make a post to see what some people think about Retribution specs that are built around extreme support. Usually not even taking Divine Storm and being able to pump out high amounts of damage while delivering heals near equivalent to Holy Paladins, as well as increased survivability.
Curious, indeed.
Retmed (I swear I’ll be the one to crown that name) isn’t something new - some Paladins have even been playing it ever since Burning Crusade rolled around. The idea here is to deliver pressure (somewhat) close to a normal Retribution Paladin, while tossing out heals like a Holy Paladin, hence the Retmed dub. Since Shield of Righteousness is virtually the same as Crusader Strike, and Judgements will usually deal more damage thanks to wearing a +SP Mace / Shield, the damage is quite comparable when bursting time comes around.
Odinsblade of Silvermoon tells me that is has had an extremely high amount of success fighting against teams ranging up to 2450+ MMR in 2v2 and 3v3 with this playstyle. I am extremely curious as to what the Ret community thinks about these kind of shenanigans - since it seems like the Paladin class isn’t able to achieve Gladiator without some type of extreme luck and gimmick these days (such as Prot Warrior as your teammate in 3v3) (inserts another splash of sarcasm here).
- Megaphone
February 22nd, 2010 - 8:55 pm
That…is an extremely interesting-looking spec and different-sounding playstyle. Definitely looks like it’s worth trying out, if nothing else but for the novelty.
February 22nd, 2010 - 9:24 pm
Hoff got glad and rank 1 as ret in 3’s and 5’s. Theseus stil rocks ret and does fine.
February 22nd, 2010 - 10:10 pm
Not saying Rets can’t get Gladiator jd, I think you missed the point of the post! That last bit about gimmicks and luck was definitely meant to be laced with sarcasm!
February 22nd, 2010 - 10:22 pm
Mega,
I luv u 2. I’ve just been ret for so long im stubborn, I would rather give this spec a shot then prot ret.
Wonder if fol glyph, sol or sow glyph is usable. dont know what the borderline is on to much holy gear.
February 22nd, 2010 - 10:34 pm
The spec reminds me of WotLK beta Holy/Ret attempting to use class mechanics to have a sustained mana pool and some deep Ret talents, but there is a significant loss of damage without Crusader Strike and Divine Storm. By equipping a one-hander, your white damage (which is actually significant) also takes a hit. Art of War also only procs off white swings now, so you will be channeling a great deal setting back your team’s momentum.
The tactic behind this build seems to be run in, drop Judgment and SoR, get out, and heal. Your damage contribution is almost negligible when you don’t have those 2 attacks, and you’re just exposing yourself to focus or cc. In my eyes, this is an offshot of Holy Paladin and shouldn’t really be considered a “Retribution” spec.
Retribution itself can obtain Gladiator and even Wrathful using powerful set ups such as Arms/Ret/Druid and Ret/Hnt/Shm which makes up for Ret’s short-comings and profit the most from its utility. I’m running Ret/Rogue/Priest myself right now, and even though it’s a somewhat archaic set up, we can still get gladiator because Ret isn’t too hard to carry at the moment (T10 2 pc helps lighten the load somewhat). Many other classes are still indeed much more effective than Retribution as you can tell by the representation in tournaments, but you can still get that title if you have a team that understands your class mechanics and theorycrafts how to raise your chances against counter-comps. Realize you’ll be fighting an uphill battle against many teams, but always be aware there’s something you can do about it.
February 22nd, 2010 - 11:03 pm
Seems more like a 2v2 spec than a 3v3 spec. If you were doing it in 3v3, it’d probably be 3 DPS.
As for ret getting gladiator, it’s definitely possible, just as possible as it was during TBC. And just like in TBC, you need the right team and players that are as good or better than you. Ret can’t carry a team.
February 22nd, 2010 - 11:17 pm
ret/war/druid?
ret/hunter/(intsert healer here)?
ret/mage/priest?
all easily glad comps with great players, even without anything being PROT.
February 23rd, 2010 - 12:52 am
@squeek
ret/warr/druid is suffering heavily now with the resilience and healing changes. Specifically, they get trounced by teams with multiple offensive dispels (priests, shaman, warlocks).
I think Vereth said he was struggling with ret/mage/priest now, as it’s harder to burst a target down.
February 23rd, 2010 - 2:55 am
looks like real fun!
what seal to use ?
February 23rd, 2010 - 10:28 am
@ Ededore
You say ret/war/druid is suffering due to dispels, but I believe this spec fixes the issue with the staying power it offers while the druid recovers. It may not be everyone’s favorite play-style, but it completely covers what I love and want to do in arena. Basically, it has more survivability than protret and compliments the druids CC extremely well during burst time. The theory behind this spec is to work with the retribution spec rather than against it. Why run through slows and struggle to get auto attacks off when you can be much more efficient healing and matching burst up when you need it the most.
February 23rd, 2010 - 10:28 am
Exedore, sorry*
February 23rd, 2010 - 2:14 pm
Seal of Righteousness as your seal!
February 23rd, 2010 - 4:09 pm
Well not to knock the guy but I don’t see this being a solid 3’s spec, There are a number of reasons really. But the biggest I see is what does he bring that a true Ret does not bring? It might be strong in 2’s but I don’t see it being super amazing in 3’s at all.
I won’t take anything away from him and if he likes what he is doing then more power to him. I don’t see that I could ever run with this because it’s just not my style at all.
February 23rd, 2010 - 4:12 pm
I would also really love to know what MMR he is running in 3’s because that team rating is deceiving.
February 23rd, 2010 - 8:56 pm
we are 2400 mmr in 3s.
February 23rd, 2010 - 9:01 pm
I don’t think this spec would be as good in a comp like the one you run (restosham/ret/hunter), but only in ones like r/w/d which rely on tanking and setting up a burst in a cc chain it will shine.
February 23rd, 2010 - 10:54 pm
I think it’s more of a play style choice, If you are good at it and good with it that’s perfect and It’s nice to see that there are other options I ran Arms/Ret/RDruid up to 2300 before I xferred servers and I ran with 1339 Resilience and tanked many people down.
GL pushing up into the 2600 range I’d really like to know how you do against WLD and Caster Cleaves of all flavors.
February 24th, 2010 - 12:21 am
@exedore.
We got 2500 in the first week with ease, and almost every gladiator team in the bg was quing. I had alot more trouble with it in s7 than i did now.
February 25th, 2010 - 2:37 pm
My question is how do you deal any damage with that spec?
It seems like you are missing the best of the healing aspect (mainly Holyshock) and the best of the damage talents aswell?
February 26th, 2010 - 11:19 am
I am strongly considering going ret because the 2200 2 hander is just more oldschool and fun, but I was playing games last night and I strongly think I would be at a disadvantage going ret with all of the wizard cleaves and RLS out there. My damage comes from cleansing and keeping my warrior mobile, while ccing with the druid at a key point and bursting during that key point. We are use to playing the standard setup and noticed yesterday that going in rambo style like a cleave is not the way we can play. We have to play more defensively and switch a lot like a double healer until everything matches up on the slot machine. All in all, I do think 2 handed ret would be more fun and equally effective but retmed really does have it’s positives. Examples are out tanking 2600 beast cleaves, out tanking TSG consistantly, and a good chance at surviving wizard cleave switches and/or being able to completely get seperated from your team out of LOS and recover by yourself while your team peels.
February 26th, 2010 - 2:26 pm
I’m just wondering why you don’t spend 1 point in crusader strike and run with a 2-hander instead for more burst.
I can see from your profile that you run with spellpower 1-hand + shield and i would think that’s a serious bottleneck concerning your damage, since your two mainattacks are judgement and Shield of Righteousness?
February 27th, 2010 - 12:09 am
This isn’t a spec meant for facerolling, Orio. It’s main focus is support and bursting well when the time comes, and being able to heal almost as well as a Holy Paladin if your team knows what pressure is!
February 27th, 2010 - 12:47 pm
Yes, well it just puzzles me where this support burst comes from seeing the spec miss Holyshock, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm. It leaves Odinsblade with just Judgement and Shield of Righteousness and with a spellpower weapon and shield, both these attacks will do very, very little damage on demand.
I would think that to make this spec work the best you should swap items around, so you’d run with a 2-hander and crusader strike and then just replace a few Ret-piece for some extra spellpower ones, to keep your healing high. That way you would heal just as well, deal WAY more damage and only lack the small extra amount of armour from the shield.
February 27th, 2010 - 9:49 pm
At this point in the game, I think the cleanse GCD on your 100% arp war to keep him mobile and out of CC does more damage than a crusader strike. I noticed in a post above us that a paladin states a flaw in this spec by saying we had to go in LOS to burst which will get us cc’ed, but isn’t it the other way around? As standard Ret I feel like I am being either trained the whole match or CC’ed and laughed at the whole game. It feels like I am not contributing and I can not adapt and LOS efficiently. This fixes that and gives me all of the tools I need to support my team. I can bob in and out of LOS tossing cleanses, repentances, judge nuking, hammer, and to use any utility I need at any given point.
This spec was inspired by Bruce Lee.
You must flow like water and not be limited to one stance.
It’s Ret Kune Do, the way of intercepting fist!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do
February 27th, 2010 - 9:51 pm
a hybrid fighting system and life philosophy founded by Bruce Lee in 1967 with direct, non classical, and straight forward movements. Jeet Kune Do is primarily an open hand system. The system works on the use of different ‘tools’ for different situations. These situations are broken down into ranges (Kicking, Punching, Trapping, & Grappling), with techniques flowing smoothly between them. Also, it is referred to as a “style without style”. Unlike more traditional martial arts, Jeet Kune Do is not fixed or patterned, and is a philosophy with guiding thoughts.
It’s time we evolved as paladin >:-D
February 28th, 2010 - 6:34 am
“Absorb What Is Useful; Reject What Is Useless ” - Bruce Lee
I am just trying to completely understand the strengths of this quite unusual spec
“Ret-Med” compared to normal Ret-spec
Pros:
+ Better healing output
+ More Exo damage, because of more spellpower
+ More armour because of shield
+ Both Aura-Mastery and Divine Guardian
Cons:
- No Crusader, no Divine Storm, spellpower weapon = much lower damage output
Am i missing something?
It seems to me that the main point behind the spec is that “Sheath of Light” lets you get a decently high amount of both AP and Spellpower, unlike the Shockadin-spec where you are forced to run in full spellpower gear.
So you can pull off pretty solid heals because of your spellpower with the extra healing talents, however i can’t quite see how you manage to make full use of that benefit of having alot of Attack Power, when you use 1-hand spellpower weapon over 2-hander + crusader strike?
Don’t get me wrong, I am all for trying out new ideas and exploring every unusual options, i just can’t see the major advantage of not going 2-hand + crusader to make optimal use of your ret-gear.
February 28th, 2010 - 11:05 am
Well, let’s start by saying shield of the righteous does equal damage to crusader strike since it ignores armor and we now have that
March 1st, 2010 - 2:17 am
Ok, i guess i see the point as a “jack of all trades” - build
March 1st, 2010 - 10:57 am
I don’t want to sound like it, but it looks to me a lot like new version of Shockadin build. But that is just my modest oppinion.
March 9th, 2010 - 10:54 am
hmm. after looking at it all, how are you on mana? I feel like with youre gear and spec set up youre going to be running oom real fast
March 13th, 2010 - 6:47 am
I think I’d do 31 points in holy and 40 in Ret instead.
Get holy shock, while still being able to judge and have most of those stats. Run around 4pc heal, and all dps off sets? Putting you at about 4.5K-5K ap with might? And do 2s with a rogue.
Honestly the only thing I could think of….