(Quoted Blizzard post)
There are a few basic way classes choose what attack to use next. Some classes are limited by resources. If a rogue has 60 energy, she can choose to spend it on attack A or attack B. If attack A hits harder and attack B doesn’t have situational utility, then she’ll use A every time.
A warlock generally isn’t limited by mana within short time scales. A lock’s decisions are more rotational. You want to cast A before you cast B. It’s not that B is bad, just that it becomes more powerful if you do A first. For example, there is little point in casting your first Corruption seconds before the target is about to die.
Paladins have a third model, one more based on prioritization. You aren’t generally limited by mana, and you don’t generally need to do things in a certain order for the mechanics to work, but you do have attacks that you’d rather use when they are available (generally because they hit harder). The decision point comes in because you have a lot of cooldowns, so you can’t just spam your hardest hitting attack over and over again. When your Judgements and Hammer and Crusader Strike are on cooldown, then your choice is probably Divine Storm. (Depending on your gear, DS might even trump CS.) If Divine Storm’s damage went down, then you might prioritize Consecration or Exorcism higher, but you can’t spam those either, so then you’re back to Divine Storm or autoattack. That was my point.
There are things we can do as well to make Divine Storm better at single targets without making it overpowered against groups of targets. Off the top of my head, there are mechanics like the meteor where the damage is divided among the targets. What we are trying to chill out on the warrior, paladin and DK particularly is the “free AE” component. When your AE attacks are balanced against single targets (in the absence of some mechanic like I was suggesting above) then you just get free damage when you can AE as well. This means those classes leap dramatically ahead on meters whenever they are in a situation where they can “cleave.” It also means they aren’t doing anything very differently when faced with groups of mobs over single targets. By contrast the mage might switch to Blizzard or Living Bomb and the rogue has to start using Fan of Knives.
One of the ways we can support more individual abilities on classes is by making them situational. If you use all of your attacks no matter what the situation, then your gameplay tends to get very formulaic and eventually boring. It is also likely to get really complicated if your whole action bar is part of your standard rotation. A better design, we think, is that some abilities get used in AE situations and some get used in single-target situations. There can be overlap, but we’d at least like players to assess the upcoming battle and make some decisions about how to approach it before just going into a tunnel vision button-hitting mode.
Solution: Make CS baseline, put a 1 point 10% dmg to CS buff in its place in the talent tree to replace it.
That is not an announced change. I can understand the frustration of being in a gray area at the moment where you know some information that we have released but much of the details are still under NDA. Unfortunately, if you focus on little tidbits that someone leaked or speculated, then you aren’t going to get the full story. In cases like this we had to put something in the talent tree as temporary filler when we pulled CS. Many of the talent trees have talents that say NYI or just plain don’t do anything. That’s just where we are in the alpha process. If we push data at a stage when someone can’t even talent down a tree then the spec becomes unplayable. As such, we have to make talent tree changes in large chunks at once.
GC – “We are nerfing Divine Storm against single targets because we don’t want AoE abilities to be used against single targets, but we fully expect Divine Storm to continue to be used against single targets.”
More accurate to say that we don’t want single target abilities to get free bonus damage when in groups. That’s not balance-able. For the warrior the solution is to make Whirlwind not cost-effective against single-targets. For the DK, it’s about getting Pestilence back towards a utility role (getting diseases up on groups) and not a massive AE attack. For the paladin, we still want them to use Divine Storm (and you can’t cost-effect a Ret paladin anyway) so the solution will have to be something different.
How about something like having Crusader Strike apply some kind of debuff to the target . Then have Divine Storm hit anyone with that debuff harder. I think that would get its damage up on single targets but keep it lower on groups.
Yep, both this and the tie-in to Judgements are good ideas. We also like the T102P bonus.
May 27th, 2010 - 9:59 am
I’d really like to see the same Crusader Strike debuff that the Scarlet mobs get. That’d be sexy.
May 27th, 2010 - 1:38 pm
*gasp* Then we might need a Holy Strike to compliment that! I’m game.
I always felt each Judgment should have a shared cooldown, so you couldn’t chain them, but that each Judgment should also have an individual cooldown.
May 27th, 2010 - 5:56 pm
So cooldowns are a resource now. Ret Paladins are doomed.
May 28th, 2010 - 9:47 am
Sounds like a big Fuck You to the Ret Paladins community.
May 29th, 2010 - 6:58 am
@Exedore
/agree
May 29th, 2010 - 2:07 pm
Right now all we can do is speculate but I’m going to have to lean towards agreeing with Exedor. So far everything they’ve put out about Retribution are just changes that remove our ability to do X, or limit our ability to do Y with trade-offs that are superficial, of limited use, or just useless.
I think a return to the problems BC Ret was, is in the wind which means we may be standingbeneath the big Blizzard PoS that’s about to dump on the Ret community.
May 29th, 2010 - 2:43 pm
Ret paladins are going to be gimp warriors in cataclysm (except for maybe the pre-release over-buff period).
They’ll have similar attacks with similar damage, but will be missing alternative attacks and combat utility. Ret used to have healing and cleanse as utility, but since classic, that’s been slowly whittled away and most of it is no longer meaningful.
May 29th, 2010 - 4:26 pm
I’m going to assume you’re not playing in the Alpha Exedore. That being the case, calling out that rets will be “gimp” warriors is a pretty big statement without much to back it up.
Rets are limited by cooldowns right now. What is going to be different? Would you rather that our resource be mana and we constantly run oom doing a normal rotation?
May 29th, 2010 - 6:44 pm
@Kaiyo
No, in fact my WoW subscription went dead almost a month ago. And I’m actually enjoying life more without WoW. But that’s another story…
The reason I can make such a statement, and fairly accurately, even before the beta, is because I look at what the devs have said and done in the past and what they’ve said about cataclysm. First, Blizzard wants to move all classes into choosing one role and forsaking any other role that their class can fulfill. This is why all healers have defensive magic dispel and it was removed from all non-healers. In addition, Ret healing will probably continue to suffer, further hurting its utility. Rets are getting an interrupt, but that’s true of every DPS class now. If you compare a Ret with marginal healing to a warrior, about the only big thing going for them is Blessing of Freedom. A warrior’s defensive utility far outshines that of a ret, and they have a larger offensive toolbox (MS, more attacks). With the developers having little idea what they actually want to do with Ret in cataclysm and the beta being so close, they’ll probably just tweak damage to a competitive level and leave horrible mechanics and lackluster utility in place. That’s been quite apparent with patch 3.2 and Seal of Vengeance.
Blizzard tends to take an approach of “balance by spreadsheet”, which is fine if the class works well fundamentally. However, Ret paladins aren’t there yet. The seal/judgement system is still very weak for a core class mechanic and there’s often little dynamic choice about what to judge or what seal to use.
As for mana, Ret needs to be in danger of running out, just like all mana users should be, and also should not be subject to going OoM quickly. That means a larger mana pool with less constant regen. Like what Ret paladins used to be.
Using cooldowns as a resource is clunky unless cooldowns line up or overlap a lot and ability choice actually matters. If cooldowns don’t overlap, attack rotations become very boring. If there is no ability choice then a frustrating priority or FCFS system occurs where you’re just mashing buttons, especially with cooldown clashes. Paladins worked better in the past where they had gaps between cooldowns where they could insert utility or burn extra mana (such as when consecrate wasn’t mandatory and actually made you go OoM if you spammed it).
May 29th, 2010 - 8:10 pm
If you quit, why are you still reading a news site regarding the game…
Regardless, several of the things you mentioned are either being blown out of proportion or simply guesses of what is to come. Blizzard wants a class to pick one role and stick with it? I guess that’s why they’re giving boomkins and shadowpriests their own ingame mechanic to function with. Also, the reasoning behind why only healers (and spriests) are keeping/gaining a defensive dispel has never been declared, my speculation is so that every team should in theory have a decent amount of dispellers. Rets healing is going to suffer….where did you read this? We’re getting holy shock, I’m confused as to why that is a nerf to our healing. Also, trying to compare a rets healing to that of a warriors is actually kind of funny. When I do bgs, I usually push 2nd or 3rd on the healing meters, depending on how many main spec heals are in the group. As far as dps specs go, I always am top dog, in damage and healing. I believe you are also confused on the concept of “defensive utility”. It doesn’t simply mean for yourself. A ret pallies defensive moves are limited, yes, but as far as group defensive utility…There really isn’t any other class that can even compare. This of course is looking at our hands, cleanses and sacrifice spells that can keep a group alive where as a warrior can only intervene or fear bomb.
I am by no means saying that Ret will be a power house in the xpac. I’m skeptical, hell I have an 80 priest that I’m gearing up just in case. But you, as with many of the ret community are so jaded by what blizzard has done in the past that even though you’ve “quit” you still visit the sites you would go to when you played and spend 10-15 minutes responding to a post about the game that you don’t play anymore.
Using CDs as a resource is really the only option for rets at this point. You talked about having more int on our gear, get a bit of extra mana. But that is a direct step backwards from where Blizzard has brought the spec in terms of gear not only in pvp but raids as well. Your post also neglected the fact that blizz has said several times that the Ret rotation is boring and needs to be spiced up. I believe GC said something along the lines of ‘ we want you to hit ability A before hitting B because A will ramp up the damage of B ‘. Or better yet, I’m sure that he had said that they want the spec to be “less forgiving”. This does not denote a simple FCFS rotation like what we have been dealing with throughout Wotlk.
Asking for the BC paladin back is probably one of the worst things you could wish for this spec. Sure, I miss the old seal system, I wish they would bring that back and take Judgement off the GCD again and make seals cost little to no mana. But you really want to get burned 4 or 5 times and then sit there…completely and utterly useless until you have a moment to drink again?
All else aside, every spec has had it’s moment in the spot light. Rets are in a good spot, not great, good. There are a few things I really wish we would get, and the only real concern for Rets at the moment for me wasn’t even addressed in your post (keeping 5 yards on a target).
May 30th, 2010 - 12:32 am
@Kaiyo
I used to enjoy the game and I’m still interested from a mechanics and storyline perspective. But in terms of actually playing, I got bored with it for most of TBC and about midway through Ulduar in WotLK. It became grinding items to be competitive rather than to have fun.
Again, what I’m saying is an educated prediction. It’s based on what was said in the past and knowing how the class works and what will make it better and what won’t. Halfway turning it into a warrior won’t work and unless Blizzard wants a severe overlap of a warrior or DK (hint: they don’t), ret paladins are going to be left in limbo in terms of utility for PvP.
Ghostcrawler or another blue did explain the dispel changes. It was party PvE and party PvP. For PvE, they wanted to make dispelling more important to healers to give them something else to do and also make debuff removal a bit more important. In order to ensure the necessary dispel removal for 10man without having to resort to bringing certain classes, they gave all healers defensive magic dispel. And on the PvP front, it’s somewhat similar. They want to make CC a bit more powerful, most of which is magic, so they felt that healers should be able to clear it as part of their defensive nature.
Two notes:
1. I’ve never had a problem with 5yd on a target when we’re both not snared. Only if they’re lagging horribly.
2. Mana burns have been significantly nerfed from TBC and remember that they’re now a percent of max HP.
What I’m getting at with mana is something similar to how it worked in TBC for us and how it currently works for enhancement shaman. Not as much as a healer or caster, but significantly more than base. It could be based on armor, just like we get spell power from AP, so that we don’t have to have special gear.
I wouldn’t wish for the TBC paladin. I’d like the TBC paladin with some fixes, like an AP->spellpower talent and slightly better in-combat mana regen. I’d also like for judgement debuffs to be more meaningful in the short-term.
May 30th, 2010 - 9:56 am
Your last post was a bit more constructive, I like that. The fear of being a marginal dps is definanlty there. With Warriors and DKs both filling a very important “I swing a big 2h” role with their own niches it’s not unwarranted to wonder what exactly Rets will become in the xpac. Your first post was a blatant statement of “Ret paladins are going to be gimp warriors in cataclysm”. Not ‘might be’ or ‘probably’ you said, are.
This is where I truly have a problem with posts like that. You’re not in the alpha, you don’t know. As far as warriors are concerned I feel that they are the least intricate class in the game. You want to talk about faceroll, try playing a warrior. Blizzard has said that Rets rotation is going to get livened up. I would expect some new mechanic to play off of our judgement system, something similar to what spriests and boomkins are getting as far as an ui overhaul.
Giving Rets a large mana pool with less regen is just flat out a bad idea, I’m sorry to say. I PvP…that’s it. So every change I look at it from only one aspect of the game. That’s not to say that I dismiss PvE but I look out for what I enjoy first. That being said, DP is dispellable still as far as I know in the expac. If judgements return no mana then rets are just a few burns away from being rendered totally useless. I’m not sure how much you PvP (or did) in BC but I remember when I would be in a fight for 3-5 minutes in PvP only to run oom. And then stand there, trying to get out of combat to sit and drink. Do you know how frusterating that is? To be a spec that relies on a mechanic with no means to regen that mechanic? That is what will happen if Rets mana is brought back up to the levels that it was in BC. DP will be on the only real form of mana regen, which is dispellable by the same classes that can drain your mana. I understand your wish, on one hand it would be nice to be able to actually toss a few heals without going oom. But at the same time, this would completely decimate Rets in PvP.
As far as my concern of keeping 5 yards, HoF will have 0 dispel resistance in the xpac (Not that the 30% we have now does anything). And we lose cleanse. I won’t go through all of the scenarios, you can imagine the abuse that just about every ranged class is going to be able to put us through without cleanse, and a 100% vulnerable HoF.
June 1st, 2010 - 10:48 pm
Hmmm… i’m quite not impressed to be honest. The current 30% dispel resistance has little to no use. Just another RNG based sh!te that i can count on one hand how many times it managed to save my Hands or Bubble. Loosing the ability to dispel magic is just… lame. I mean come on, rogues and ferals could never stop us anyways so who cares about diseases and poisons? Mages, locks heck even SPs and boomkins get more utility. Imagine a Ret vs. SP fight. I won’t be able to dispel the dots eating me? Oh wait i can interrupt the nothing from 10 billion yards while my character is being snared and getting fingered badly. It’s so cool! /sarcasm off
In PvE it was always nice helping out the raid with some dispels (not to mention some heals, etc.) while facerolling. The utility is why some of us were brought to raids back in TBC and the utility is what makes the difference between a good ret and a bad ret. According to Exedore’s visions we’re gonna be gimp warriors. Gotta second that Tunnel vision ftw? You’ll be busy trying to sort your supercool shiny new CD based rotation while not even being able to move correctly out of fire. No. Don’t get me wrong. The current FCFS is not a good solution either. And X was referring to TBC as the ultimate Ret trial where you had your CDs, you had limited mana regen (well no mana regen at all) but if you were able to use your brain you could DPS heck even heal a tiny bit not to mention Hands (former Blessings) and stuff. It was more fun and made Retribution an exceptional class that required focusing and skills(!) to perform well. We don’t need intellect back on the gear, that would just make Blizz have to work on actual game design instead of giving the same items to all classes. Homogenisation (spelling?) at it’s best. I’m waiting for mages to gain the ability to wear plate so they can ninja our shiny epics hahaha. Fail again but meh. We’ll see what happens. I’m afraid we won’t be any better nor worst. Same boring bullcrap. But let again we’ll see… Hope never dies, does it?
July 12th, 2010 - 4:08 am
i think that blizzard is forgetting, what paladins used to be and what they turned them into. Something we not.
when i played paladin as LV 60 i saw my paladins as s support class ” MC / Bwl what i where raiding” but we didn’t pull out awesome dps, our healing where not the best but, and i don’t wanna come close to tanking.. but we supported a lot in a raid with our POB, Buffs and small flash of lights. and i accurately thought it was fun. now blizzard is trying to give all specs buff’s so that we are just as good as any other healer / tank or Dps but taking a look at retri paladins we need the option to press a wrong spell and mess up something for our self, let me explain.. A warrior has a chance to mess it up for him self because he is limited by rage and same for a rogue who is limited by energy. so if they press the wrong spell they have a tough time getting back in the fight, but since paladins only have Judgment – CS – DS – Auto attack to mess up it’s to easy to play the class. i don’t know if we need more abilities that do less dmg. because we got few spells with huge that can do way to much dmg. But something new has to happen to retri paladins otherwise we will be hated for what blizzard turned our class into….